Cast should "feel heavy" - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 09:36 AM Thread Starter
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Cast should "feel heavy"

Good morning,
I read/hear from several sources that the rod should "feel heavy throughout the cast". I have been at this for about a year, and consider myself only a diligent beginner, but this goal seems pretty hard to attain. I realize that it would be a very good thing if one could achieve it, but I doubt that I ever will! I feel a good amount of load at the beginning of my sweep, but it diminishes as the cast progresses. I have taken several lessons from good teachers, and practiced much. Is this load throughout the cast something I can hope to achieve, and - if so - any advice on how to get there? Thanks.

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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 09:55 AM
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Not sure 'heavy' is the right word, but maybe 'resistance'. To me, resistance equals load, and load is the opposite force that will project your line forward when applied.

my 2 worth.....
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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
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Yes. I think the "resistance" is what they mean. Anyhow, that is what I have trouble maintaining. I am getting decent results, but it is too much me supplying the forward power, rather than the energy of the rod.

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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 11:54 AM
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If you think you're getting ahead of the rod action on the forward cast, try slowing down to the point of failure, then upping it a notch. That should allow the rod to do what you paid for.
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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 12:06 PM
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I could think of several things to improve feel. Your line/head type/setup, is it suitable for the rod you use? You don't mention anything about your gear. Your casting, fast/slow, too fast/slow. A rod manufacturer will give a range in grain weight. Some people will prefer a higher grain weight, some lower. With a lower grain weight on a particular rod you might need to slow the casting stroke to maintain correct tension. A longer head will give you more water tension translating to more resistance/feel. A short heavy head may also do this but will be easy to pull the anchor. Either way you would need to adjust your stroke accordingly. The last one that comes to mind is expectations. With your rod/line/head setup, how far do you think it will cast? Is that a realistic distance? How far are you casting with it? Better yet, how far do you need to cast it? Will that setup meet those requirements? Not enough information.

Dan

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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 12:39 PM
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I like herkileez's point very much. I've been playing with trying to get the cast to extend just as the energy dissipates, not matter the length of the cast. No bounce back, no reel burp.

I barely remember high school, let alone physics, but I think that in order to feel constant load you need constant acceleration. So accelerate to your stop, same as sh casting, would build a continually increasing load in your rod, til the stop and energy release.

I don't ever think of it as heavy, even in a winter stick with a skagit head. There's just not that much mass. I think if it feels heavy you're working too hard. But I want the feeling of contact, or I have no idea what I'm doing.
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 05:31 PM Thread Starter
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The particular rod is a Meiser S2H1368S. I am using an Airflo 600 grain skagit compact intermediate (FIST predecessor). I have also used the full floater in the same grain weight. I am casting it with a T-14 tip about 10 feet long, a leader about 3 feet, and usually a silvenator. It all goes better with an unweighted hohbo, by the way.

I can cast 60 to 70 feet easily, which is far enough for most of my river. On a good day with one of my strong casts, I can probably cast about 90 feet. The poke is the exception, as I can get more out of that very consistently.

Another way of posing my question: I have been working on the poke. The load on the rod is immediate and very pronounced, and distance is easily achieved. I guess I wonder whether it is possible to get that kind of load on the casts such as the snap T and the Double Spey. From what I have experienced, maybe on the Snap T, but maybe NOT on the Double Spey......

I will try some of these ideas. Thank you.

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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 05:33 PM Thread Starter
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That is a very good idea.

If everybody used shoe horns, they'd catch 'em all on shoe horns.
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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outerhebrides View Post
I can cast 60 to 70 feet easily, which is far enough for most of my river. On a good day with one of my strong casts, I can probably cast about 90 feet. The poke is the exception, as I can get more out of that very consistently.

Another way of posing my question: I have been working on the poke. The load on the rod is immediate and very pronounced, and distance is easily achieved. I guess I wonder whether it is possible to get that kind of load on the casts such as the snap T and the Double Spey. From what I have experienced, maybe on the Snap T, but maybe NOT on the Double Spey......

I will try some of these ideas. Thank you.
I think you just answered your own question. With the poke the line is dumped out in the direction of the cast. By default the anchor is inline with the target. Ideal scenario. If your not getting that anchor in that position with other casts then I think this problem is solved. Always get the anchor as close to inline with the target as possible. This will allow you to maintain maximum load on the rod to let it do it's job.

Dan
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 06:58 PM
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As Dan said, or eluded to.......

If you can make it happen with one cast, then the line, tip, etc is matched fairly well with the rod, and you should be able to do it with any cast. In other words, the marriage (line, rod, tip) is not the problem.

Working on continual load, anchor placement, and timing should bring you the results you seek.

good luck,
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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 07:28 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks, guys. All good counsel. Yeah, the rod/line/tip marriage is not the problem. Maybe I will just quit doing everything except pokes. Kidding. What fun would that be?

Interestingly, I was out there this morning and did some interesting things with setups. The genius of the poke is not only that the anchor is so close to in-line with the target, but the SHAPE of the poke is also key. If you can lay down a nice u-shape or some kind of arc, I think you get an even better load than if you just fling the head in a pile or a 'V'. To the extent that you can get a bit of an arc in the setups for the double spey and snap t it helps load the rod nicely. It is all good, as they say....

I also added about 2 1/2 feet of overhang, which made an immediate difference.

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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 08:12 PM
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You mentioned taking instruction from good teachers. What have they suggested to you? If it has been a while, perhaps a refresher would help you. I know it can be frustrating, believe me, but don't give up as it will come.

You can catch a lot of fish, and you can keep a lot of fish. But you can't do both very long. Jim Timmins
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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outerhebrides View Post
Good morning,
I read/hear from several sources that the rod should "feel heavy throughout the cast". I have been at this for about a year, and consider myself only a diligent beginner, but this goal seems pretty hard to attain. I realize that it would be a very good thing if one could achieve it, but I doubt that I ever will! I feel a good amount of load at the beginning of my sweep, but it diminishes as the cast progresses. Thanks.
I don't think I've ever heard the descriptor 'heavy' used. Is the intention to indicate load on the rod, or, tension in the line? Closely related, not exactly the same thing.

Constant line tension is a worthy goal, I prefer to think of being always 'connected' to the line. In principle, this is easy to diagnose, if you are not connected somewhere you introduced slack into the cast. Find the first point that happened, focus on staying connected through that part of the cast. If you don't know where, take some slow-motion video and watch your line and rod tip. Start at the very beginning of the cast, it's shocking how often this is where problems originate. Are you starting your cast with slack in the line ?

IMO there's nothing particularly unique about the poke in this aspect, though, I despise it so much I admit my mental picture is a little more fuzzy than with other casts. Any cast can be maintained in constant tension, at least pretty close. Certainly the back-half of both the snap and the double can.
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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 04:15 AM
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While “tension” is technically better, and “connected” more subtle, I use “heavy” and “weight” on a regular basis. They describe the feeling.

I demonstrate tension before talking about heaviness, so the technical basis is linked to the feeling.

Edit. The OP refers to the feel of heaviness in the sweep. Buhr writes a lot about effort vs. tempo in his book, but the information seems to cost $400+ nowadays. In any case, the feel of heaviness can certainly vary, for example, during the sweep of a single spey. For some parts of the sweep I prefer terms like "control" and "ownership."

Like an unconscious answer to a question that has been troubling me for long, or a sudden opportunity to achieve something valuable I had almost given up on, the fish is there.

Last edited by smooth; 05-22-2019 at 05:04 AM.
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 06:04 AM
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I recommend lawn casting practice. A Skagit line tip overshoots quite a lot and fluff might hit ground behind when basic overhead false casting is done but when Oval/Belgian casting the line behaves smoother. Its back cast serve Spey casting as well when you have to use ”rising plane”

Esa
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