Casting practice help - Page 2 - Spey Pages
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-11-2017, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KilgoreT View Post
My friend Mark Huber gave me some great advice on speed and power. He like to slow down a cast until it fails. Then add a bit more speed. Same goes for power. Back the power off until the cast fails. Then add a bit more. I've been playing around with this, but it does take some patience.
This has been exactly what I also have used as my strategy from the beginning, and it really really helps a lot. I guess some us are just so stubborn, that time and again we have to go back to what doesn’t work no matter how many times we’ve re-learned what does work? This is one of those lessons I just seem to need to learn and re-learn again and again and again. Timeless advice for us all I suppose.
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-11-2017, 06:35 PM
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Jason;


Forget about competition casting styles...it just muddies the waters when you are trying to develop a 'grooved' technique which suits you and the rod/line combo which you are using. If you find that Robert Gillespie's video lessons are helping you, then just stick with that and forget anything else you have heard. When you have fished consistently to your satisfaction for a year, then analyse what your requirements are and which of these you may not be meeting with your developed style. Only when you have the answers to those questions can you address the problem/s you have identified. Meanwhile stick with Robert! [He is in fact an ex Tournament caster of considerable note...but is not teaching that stuff in the videos].
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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-12-2017, 12:11 PM
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Jason! We can stop and produce narrow line loop but when we begin to execute the stop the line does not accelerate as well as it does when we accelerate line longer. This should be easy to understand. The difference is small but stopless casting can be less harmful for the top arm biceps tendon and whole elbow joint when we can stop rod slower and just before hitting water is enough.

This apply to casts where we shoot line which is common in current fishing style. Basic no shoot casts can and usually do benefit of stopping.

There are three things needed to cast higher trajectory. First is to use a casting stroke which makes line accelerate upwards as straight as possible. Second is to release before rod tip begins to pull line too much down and. Third is to begin casting stroke using lower rod angle which require Drifting.

Line loop begins to form soon after the line acceleration begins to slow down and there rod tip path which turns down cause it. Rod tip speed might still accelerate but it accelerates line more and more down but when the majority of the line already has speed to direction it was accelerated this part passes the part which rod tip turns down and line loop begins to form. So it is better to release the line before it to avoid line loop opening too much. Line speed is good but fast and wide line loop is worse than less fast but narrow line loop because the air drag of line has has big effect and wide line loop has lots of air drag.

Use of more overhang allows slightly more delayed line release and therefore produce slightly higher line speed when the line loop does not widen too much because the rod tip path turning down effects less to light shooting line section than the beginning of the more massive line rear which follows rod tip further behind.

Esa
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-13-2017, 06:39 AM
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Jason your practice place is beautiful but I hope fish don' t disturb your concentration too much

I see two same areas where you can improve your casting where I am working. First is doing slower initial line lift. When done slower it comes more consistent and then the back cast comes more consistent. When the line head is long at first we need to free as much line as possible but not lift rod too high. About 45 decrees is fine. Next is challenging part "the Dip" and it is essential because long line require either inclined back cast plane or a level plane which has an upward lift "flick and stop" in the end and without Dip in between there is no room to do it.

One way to do the dip controlled way is curling the top arm bicep which makes rod tip dip. This is what I practice now because it seems to improve my consistency. Then I try to continue back cast using just body rotation keeping arms locked again to improve consistency and then finish the back cast using bottom hand push and surprice it seems to improve consistency too. However I am not athletically skilled and for me it is challenging because it does not go in perfect sequence: lift, curl, twist, push but those overlap slightly.

To improve my back cast consistency which starts when I lift the line I watch the line where it is about one feet above the water and at first this point "goes out" and slows down when rod arrives 45 decrees. Then when I begin the back cast curling the bicep the line tightens and more line comes out of water and to adjust the rod tip dip and beginning of body twist I try to keep this one feet height point "fixed there". Even more line begins to lift out of water and approach the leader but same time rod tip comes down and this makes the line straighter and line ancle lower.

Then when line frees out of water as low force as possible and as straight as possible there does not come too much line waves and it improves the following D-loop. Also when there is less bend in rod during the line lift it improves the consistency of the back cast to D-loop. Rod has three ways to transmit casting energy to the line and using rod as a lever and as a momentum is more consistent than using rod as a spring. Rod should not straighten in the middle of the back because it makes D-loop form more to the side which it easily does if too much bent rod "casts it" when line forcefully jumps out of water.

When D-loop is a line loop the back cast which is a cast should accelerate smoothly and end to an upward trajectory and stop abruptly and line loop comes narrow and D-loop improves. When Spey casting T&G we intentionally stop line loop straightening about half way setting the anchor. When SA casting we do it in reverse order.

Then comes forward cast and I can't write any tips to time it right other than practice.

I am prone to a casting fault Creep which is unintentional moving of rod forward when the D-loop (or line loop when OH casting) forms and Creep is bad when it shortens actual casting stroke. Creep usually lifts rod more upright as well which then together with shorter casting stroke bends rod a lot and when rod bends its span shortens and rod tip dips and it sends a wave to the fly line which is called a Tailing Loop.

TL can be so bad that it can cause line loop collision towards the end of the line loop straightening. However when Spey casting the water anchor placing often cause the fly leg of the line loop run further side than the rod leg of the line loop and collisions are not too common but because a TL is bad we should avoid it.

To avoid Creep I try to Drift which is intentional move of rod handle back and up and rod tip back and down when the D-loop forms. This lengthens the following forward casting stroke and makes it possible to produce more power. Drift also moves rod tip down and keeps line straighter when gravity cause the line to drop. Also when rod angle approach the line angle it does not bend too easy in the beginning of the casting stroke and TL lessens. There are much better Drift articles and videos worth reading and watching in internet for OH casting but it is the same for Spey casting.

Esa
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Last edited by bender; 11-13-2017 at 07:06 AM.
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-13-2017, 08:23 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks again for all the suggestions! I had a very productive session yesterday afternoon, while I did still have a lot of issues, my consistency was a lot better even up to casting all but the last 10’ or so of the line. Overall the biggest help was getting rid of creep by really focusing on drifting. I still feel that I should be able to add just a bit more energy to some of my casts, and a better range of trajectory angles, but those areas were also doing a lot better than before.

I think I had been getting a tailing loop at least 50% of the time whenever I would try to shoot out a lot of line. Yesterday, That percentage was probably more like 20% when casting to my max distance, and pretty much zero when casting in the 60-75’ range. I am very happy with my progress, so far. I had no intentions of looking to get into tournament casting or anything, but I do very much like to make my casting as smooth and efficient as possible.
Thanks again guys!
P.S. better still, I was able to set up a lesson for next week, so hopefully I can build on these steps
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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-13-2017, 08:37 AM
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Tournament casting is where gear and teghnique are tried to use 100% but we can apply most of it to fishing. Eventually there comes a casting distance which is too much for the rod stiffness.

Old Airflo Delta lines I have have old tapers and weight difference between rear and front half is not too good. I have made it better remowing rear taper and welding about two feet of heavy Skagit belly to the rear and then casting is easier and distance increase.

Esa
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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-13-2017, 08:19 PM
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Some better casts here. Feedback, critique, praise, peanut gallery commentary all welcomed:
Nice job Jason, keep practicing... I'll watch these and comment when I can, keep practicing!

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-13-2017, 08:20 PM
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Same cast normal speed where the back cast stop comes clear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV5Ol4LC6bQ
Awesome cast Bender, glad you posted it.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-14-2017, 01:22 AM
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Feedback, critique, praise, peanut gallery commentary all welcomed:
It's hard to tell in short videos but if it were me here are some things I'd watch for next time out.

IMO your anchors are too far back and to the side for your casting angle. This is contributing to blown anchors (video #4, first cast) and poor loop morphology.

Related, looks like you may have slight pause in the lift before back-cast. Try to smooth it out. Video #1, 1st cast. You are sorta lifting the line out then slamming it back down.

A similar exercise to the "slow down till the cast fails" is "try to put the fly farther as far in front as you can." This requires a lot of control over the lift and back-cast tempo.

Watch for creep on fwd cast (video #4, 1st cast, video #1, 1st cast). Starting fwd cast at high rod angle = tendency for too much power too soon = tailing loop. Can be "compensated" by downward casting angle = opening the loop.

Watch your body and hip alignment. Be square to the target when firing. Video #2, 1st cast, almost looks like you cast across your body. Video #4, second cast, possible over-rotation.

I see a lot of arm movement/power, not as much use of the body and core muscles. You are almost static below the ribcage on some casts (Video #1, 1st cast).

Hope this is helpful, as far as free Internet advice goes.
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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-14-2017, 05:20 AM
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Awesome cast Bender, glad you posted it.
Thanks Tim but unfortunately it is not me He is another Finn Sakke Siipilehto who won Spey 18ft WC 2014 and has won many medals on ICSF 15'1'' Spey and SH overhead distance contests. IMO his Spey casting technicue is the best of all current competitors.

Esa
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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-14-2017, 08:54 PM
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Kudos to you for videoing your casting. You are doing really good. Troutless makes some good points in his posts and he is also a SOR competitor so he know what he is talking about.

Here are some tips from Zack Williams of Swing the Fly magazine featured on PNW Guides Blog...There is a video and his comments. Since you have played with the spey line enough to have a good feel for the longer line and have no trouble casting it I suggest shooting only one or less rod lengths of running line. Groove your stroke by drilling through repetition.

Also read Cloners posts and see his video clips found on here. Good luck.






Single Spey Thoughts



Here my good friend Bruce Kruk does a single spey in slow motion.

I think he has one of the cleanest Single Speys in the world.

Here is the takeaway from that:

1. Slow, clean lift.

2. Pay particular attention to his sweep. Notice how quiet his arms are. The sweep is done with his turning at the hips, not by turning with his arms.

3. A nice high drift and then smooth pull of the bottom hand for a forward cast.

Simple as that!
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... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-14-2017, 10:10 PM Thread Starter
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It's hard to tell in short videos but if it were me here are some things I'd watch for next time out.

IMO your anchors are too far back and to the side for your casting angle. This is contributing to blown anchors (video #4, first cast) and poor loop morphology.

Related, looks like you may have slight pause in the lift before back-cast. Try to smooth it out. Video #1, 1st cast. You are sorta lifting the line out then slamming it back down.

A similar exercise to the "slow down till the cast fails" is "try to put the fly farther as far in front as you can." This requires a lot of control over the lift and back-cast tempo.

Watch for creep on fwd cast (video #4, 1st cast, video #1, 1st cast). Starting fwd cast at high rod angle = tendency for too much power too soon = tailing loop. Can be "compensated" by downward casting angle = opening the loop.

Watch your body and hip alignment. Be square to the target when firing. Video #2, 1st cast, almost looks like you cast across your body. Video #4, second cast, possible over-rotation.

I see a lot of arm movement/power, not as much use of the body and core muscles. You are almost static below the ribcage on some casts (Video #1, 1st cast).

Hope this is helpful, as far as free Internet advice goes.
Super helpful! I greatly appreciate the specific points, some of which I had noticed when I watched too, but some things I hadn’t noticed yet. This is great stuff, and very easy to digest. Now we’ll see if I can apply any of it!
JB
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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-14-2017, 10:19 PM Thread Starter
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SkagitMiester, those are also helpful. I was in a bit of a quandary as to how much line I should be trying to cast, as I could see pros and cons either way. I am coming around to think you have it right, and that I should probably spend a higher percentage of my time in the short to mid range distances. I hope to keep getting in an hour here and there as much as I can through the fall, probably won’t get in as regular of practice come January (other than a couple of steelhead trips up north if I can manage).
Cheers!
JB
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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 01:39 AM
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I was in a bit of a quandary as to how much line I should be trying to cast, as I could see pros and cons either way.
It's a good question.

The two pieces of advice on the subject I've found most helpful:

1. Cast as much line as makes your 80% consistent distance, meaning, 80% of your casts should be nearly flawless in their layout and turnover. Shorter, you may not see the problems, are not pushed to improve. Longer, too many problems to focus, not building good habits.

2. Zero. One of my trusted mentor-gurus claims he once spent three months doing nothing but back-casts. I did not have the discipline for that, which probably goes some way to explaining our relative skill levels, but I did last about a month. It helped. Best on still water. And yes, during one of these sessions, I did have someone walk up to me and say "Try using more bottom hand."

It's a long and really never-ending road, but focus on the basics, keep making small adjustments, you will continue to improve. Videos can be huge helpers, keep doing it.
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-16-2017, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
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Update:

Had the pleasure of a formal 1-1 lesson with Doug Duncan yesterday, money very well spent!!! He really surpassed my expectations by a long shot, and really simplified the whole process for me. Some small but dramatic changes really made a lot of parts just click, also cleaned up my total hodgepodge “mutt” casting style to a simple, and consistent form. Well, I have a ways to go to make it really consistent, muscle memory takes a bit of work to unlearn, but conceptually I feel I know exactly what I need to do now.

A lot of the tips here fit right inline with what he keyed on too, in particular:
-more body rotation (I was mostly moving my arms and shoulders)
-slowing down
-cleaning up my lift and sweep (smoothed that out a lot). Apparently the lift really was where almost all my issues were stemming from.

Even starting with my hand/arm position at the start of my cast made a big impact on how relaxed and “easy” the whole cast flowed. In the end we did very little work on the forward cast, as I had almost eliminated my tendency to creep already, and with the changes to how I was doing the lift and sweep I had a lot less inclination to hit it so hard. He also made a small but radical change to how I do my snake rolls, which will take some time to adopt, but clearly fixed some vexing issues that have haunted me on and off from the start.

Really can’t say enough good things about the lesson, Doug is a really good teacher for anyone in the area in need of instruction!
JB
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