Skagit: Pause or no pause? - Page 4 - Spey Pages
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post #46 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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Whether the pause...

... is technically a pause or not, "it" is at the very least a sign of something different going on in the Skagit casting process as defined and explained by me and that is why there might just be some importance in discussing this component of such a "simple" form of casting. It seems rather ironic to me that many of the same people that poohpooh the effects of CM/CL or deny its merits are the same folks that claim Skagit casting "feels clunky". I can assure you that Skagit casting, as I perform it, does NOT FEEL CLUNKY. It is instead a very positive feeling of "load" throughout the entire casting process. Check the video... excepting for cast #6 which is a screw-up, there is no evidence of slack anywhere in the system, from the beginning of the Sweep, to the final casting stroke, that would cause any feeling of "clunkiness". Can this be the result of a linear, stop-n-go, back-and-forth casting action or is it instead evidence of an out-and-around, CM\CL casting action?! Hmmmmmm... could it be that there IS A DIFFERENCE!
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post #47 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 12:46 AM
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Continuous Motion

I have gotten a great deal of enjoyment from the Commando heads and found the OPST and other videos have helped me a great deal.

No matter how we fool ourselves everything is moving.

The biggest improvements in my casting came when I began to feel the load. Mostly subconsciously I discovered through repetition that I had some control through rod movement and timing. I still have a long way to go! What if I have gotten ahead of myself? Perhaps sweeping too fast or anchoring incorrectly and I slow down to alter the timing to suit the change? What if the D loop is still not fully formed when our hands are in the firing position? Slow down? Everything is in Continuous Motion. Not just Spey casting...

No matter what we discuss we make it work for ourselves. Learning through the people here makes it easier. (Sometimes more difficult)

Always a pleasure!

Skin that Cat...






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Originally Posted by Riveraddict View Post

Lastly, as the saying goes, "more than one way to skin a cat", and there are many ways to cast "Spey". However, note that certain people seem to CONSISTENTLY cast well with their chosen methodology. There is a REASON for that circumstance and that is the fact that they have determined a combination of casting actions that successfully COMPLEMENT one another. If you choose to learn a style of casting that has been proven to be a functional and valid methodology and you determine over time that it is not "delivering the goods" for you, so to speak, then you should probably think about re-evaluating your own talents as a caster before faulting the casting style.
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post #48 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 10:42 AM
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"Sustained anchor" as it was coined means that the line has to come to a complete stop. So how can you have sustained anchors and yet main constant motion? The one thing that makes sense to me this far is that the cast has been segmented . So in skagit casting - it is no longer one continuous movement. The lift and repositioning movements are not considered part of the stroke and are seperate from the sweep d loop formation and the forward cast...

Am I close there?
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Last edited by fish0n4evr; 11-21-2016 at 12:15 PM.
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post #49 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 11:10 AM Thread Starter
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Correct, the lift and reposition elements are not included into the "CM/CL" process. The CM/CL action begins with the start of the Sweep and ends at the completion of the forward casting stroke.

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post #50 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 12:06 PM
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I think when the importance of the rod "load" was so much emphasized when Skagit casting instructions began appearing did lead to casting issues Creep and Tailing Loop.

I don't like the term "sweep" alone without context with "back cast" because after the sweep there comes a back cast when line head is not very short which directs the line loop which of course in Spey is only partial D-loop.

I see that when You Ed admit that you do nowadays ecute a pause could lead understanding line behavior "physics" better among Skagit casters. It looks like many deny to understand it because of respect.

Good casting teaching include pauses and eventually drifting and so should Skagit/SA casting!

Esa
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post #51 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 12:45 PM
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Esa - you are the only one I have heard that indicate CM/CL causes creep - I do not believe it does and I do not actually think that Ed is saying he is pausing - Again you continually try to bring in longer line analogies which is a whole different ball game but even with the original Skagit lines and lengths of 3.5 times rod length you could quite easily perform CM/CL casting where the hands are continually moving keeping the line in constant tension
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post #52 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 02:19 PM
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Hum,when I think "clunky" about a type of casting system it is almost always about how the line lands. Maybe a bit about how it flies and turns over as well - all feel stuff. But never about the intrinsic casting moves. Those are only "clunky" when you are not doing them right, IMHO.
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post #53 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick J View Post
Esa - you are the only one I have heard that indicate CM/CL causes creep - I do not believe it does and I do not actually think that Ed is saying he is pausing - Again you continually try to bring in longer line analogies which is a whole different ball game but even with the original Skagit lines and lengths of 3.5 times rod length you could quite easily perform CM/CL casting where the hands are continually moving keeping the line in constant tension
It does Rick! Perhaps others are smarter than I am and don't write about it or they do not understand? I have not seen a SA cast when line head is not very short which does not have either a Creep or a Pause. Old Ed Ward CM/CL videos where he casts longer line head do have Creep and so does everyone elses videos who CM/CL and I did Creep as well when I began Skagit. New videos where Ed casts a shorter line head he pauses and there is no Creep anymore. They are great videos and everyone can see Ed pauses now and all the "load" from the rod is "lost"!

Ed why do you not say you do pause?

No doubt it is possible to cast CM/CL and Creep but it is not the best way! At least CL should be forgot and CM could be called Drifting.

Esa
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post #54 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 03:26 PM
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And yet somehow the casts work absolutely perfectly. How, oh how can this be?

A little tact would go a long way here Bender. It always does on line where people can not hear the tone of your voice - which for what it is worth, I am sure would be friendly and not at all condescending - and where all the people have are the words themselves. Whether or not you actually have a valid point, it takes a bit of presumption to make blanket statements, both about a cast you admiditly have not used much, and to a guy who, in this case literally saying the least, has probably done like 10000 times more of them. What you say IS sometimes very interesting. But I feel like a lot of what you have been saying has already been responded to at lenght. It is not only, in this case, that people disagree with you just because they do not understand what you are saying.
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post #55 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 05:24 PM
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Skagit pause or no pause

Hi All,
Something that interests me is the idea of Constant motion casting, i once explained an idea of constant motion casting at a Spey clave many years ago in Canada and low and behold a F.F.F. casting instructor who was at the show started teaching Constant motion casting, which of course he was not doing.

Its not that i have invented a new style of Speycasting, but i read a lot of old books, so much so that it has become a little addictive over the years, and i will repeat... i have invented nothing.
We all know the details that went into traditional Salmon flies, well why would the fly be so important...... and the rod, line and cast .... not so, just doesn't make sense.
In the worded statement below, is Alexander Grant explaining to Jock Scott his casting style in his own personal letters, please remember Greenheart rods were what we would call soft, but no less powerful, the rod tip would travel much further back than the rods we use today, but again i say the rods could be made strong and the tip travel fast, it was always said think of swinging a heavy hammer rather than tapping with a light one at the end of the handle.

Now some observations regarding what I call and mean by practical
fly casting. When casting on the Thames I called my cast a modification of the 'Spey' cast. Critical observers there called it the 'Planet' cast. Arthur D.Craeshay (Silver Grey) called it 'perpetual motion, for the simple reason that it was done with a tight line from end to end and not an atom of time lost in its delivery'.


Now the cast used was about as far away as you can get from the underhand style of casting, in fact its the exact opposite, Another forum sexyloops had a big thread on this subject including slow mo filming.
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post #56 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 07:48 PM
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Esa - if CM/CL caused creep then slack would develop in the line and if done correctly with even longer Skagit heads it does not - line stays in constant tension. If you say you have never seen a longer skagit cast without creep or pause you are not around a lot of Skagit folks that perform CM/CL very effectively. I am not saying that you can't cast with putting in a pause but a very large number of Skagit casters I am sure would disagree with you when you say CM/CL is not the best way.

To each his own - as others have said - many ways to skin a cat and the CM/CL way is highly effective even with longer Skagit lines
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post #57 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 07:59 PM Thread Starter
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Botsari...

... the clunky that is referenced about Skagit casting has to do with the "backcast" portion of a Spey-type cast, where if'n one is using a linear, back-and-forth, load-unload-load process, the feeling of unload to load is heightened to a "thump" sensation by the Skagit line's concentration of weight in such a short length. This can best be experienced by falsecasting a Skagit line multiple times in an overhead casting capacity... thump, thump, thump, thump, THUMP! Which prompts me to clarify that "we" do in fact overhead cast Skagit lines in a productive angling capacity when the need arises. However, the trick to pleasant and effective overhead casting a Skagit line is to use one and only ONE BACKCAST. This by the way used to be the "standard" way to flyfish for winter steelhead, before doublehanders became all the rage in North America it was singlehanders, shootingheads and mono. The procedure was strip in to the back of the head, one rollcast forward, immediately jack back into a backcast, then punch into the forward cast and SHOOT IT!
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post #58 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
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Esa...

"Creep" would by definition be an action that detracts from, or reduces the effective length of the casting stroke. I see nothing ineffective about my casting stroke.

As for "pause"... on my stated vid, cast #4, view and concentrate your attention for the entire cast on the rod attitude, specifically the fact that the separation of planes is nearly 90 degrees between the backstroke of the Sweep and the forward stroke of the casting stroke and therefore there has to be some "connecting" action/step/procedure to get the rod from one plane to the other and the effect of that action on the status of the rod cannot be fully appreciated except from an overhead view which is of course not available for this session. Next, "rewind" the vid, cast #4, and watch JUST THE HANDS. Bear in mind that what you are watching is at a significantly reduced speed from real time! Next, "rewind" #4 again and note that the from the beginning of the Sweep to the forward casting stroke, some part of the "system", whether that be line or rod is in fact in motion AND CONNECTED TOGETHER (taut) the entire time. Now then, if after you digest all of that you still believe that there is a pause in that casting sequence, well then, we are all entitled to an OPINION.
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post #59 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 08:56 PM
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Thanks for the clarification of "clunky". I started using a skagit head overhead this year, exactly that way, for surf casting. When I read about it, and especially how heavy a head and tip was recommended, I was skeptical. But the one backcast and fire was so awesome it was addictive. I'm definitely a convert to that application now. But yes, I would not want to do multiple false casts with that set up. With a 9wt spey rod and matching head and tip the hardest part was making sure you can hold onto the shooting until the last moment, and any "clunks" would not be fun.
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post #60 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 09:19 PM
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Creep vs Drift

An instructive explanation (as well as dealing with straight-line path of rod tip, tailing loops, slack, wasted casting energy, & stop on the back-cast [aka pause])

w w w dot deneki.com/2014/05/fly-casting-creep-vs-drift/

although perhaps talking about SH casting, the explanations are just as applicable to DH'ers, the back-cast referring to the creation of the D-loop




Mike

PS: if it is easier for the student of fly casting to be more effectively taught by the expert using the terms CM/CL & no pause [Skagit casting], rather than the minutiae of physics of loading and the momentary unloading with rod-tip directional change (and learning all the above complex terms), then right on, Ed!!
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