Casting From The Key Position - Spey Pages
 22Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 4.00 average. Display Modes
post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-31-2016, 09:22 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 597
Casting From The Key Position

Once while attending a spey clave a demonstrator was describing the cast from the key position, using terminology of the computer age, that has stuck with me, and I try to apply it in my casting, but sometimes struggle on the best way to accomplish it. The demonstrator described the cast from the key position as follows; The cast is made by moving the rod forward from the key position as a backslash, \\\\\\, and maintain that position until the final moment, snapping to a forward slash, /.
This, to me, makes it clear what to do, stopping with a high rod, but I wonder if it is best to accomplish this movement with a lot of body movement, especially maintaining the backslash, rather than just arm movement. Your thoughts?

You can catch a lot of fish, and you can keep a lot of fish. But you can't do both very long. Jim Timmins
reelstory is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-31-2016, 01:34 PM
Registered User
 
Botsari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Northern California
Posts: 3,021
I think you are right. Simon Gawesworth has a teaching aid description of this - BAP (or body, arms, power). These are described as the order in which they are applied, body first, then the arms get involved (backslash maintained), then power part at the last moment where the back-slack become the forward slash. Especially helpful for longer lines in my experience - I have been accused at times of being a slacker and not getting enough body behind things. So I think yes the body first, but then the arms with the body. These are also in the order of relative acceleration potential and it all works best when there is a nice smooth acceleration right through to the max forward slash.
fredaevans likes this.
Botsari is offline  
post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-31-2016, 01:59 PM
Drags are for Sissys
 
waynev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Credit, Catt, Grand
Posts: 296
Start with the body by smoothly transferring "some" weight to the forward foot then bring in the arm hand movements. A small movement of the body creates a pretty large movement at the rod tip and small body movement is all you need to start the line flying into the forward cast from a loaded rod.
You can do too much body here by "leaning" too far forward (which drops your shoulder) and or rolling the shoulder forward - you don't want to negatively impact the height of the D-loop behind you causing it to drop more into the water.
waynev is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-09-2016, 12:10 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 597
Thanks for the replies. I will try the suggestions soon since water is becoming available.

You can catch a lot of fish, and you can keep a lot of fish. But you can't do both very long. Jim Timmins
reelstory is offline  
post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-09-2016, 04:05 PM
JD
 
JDJones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Rogue River State of Jefferson
Posts: 3,578
BAP vs the Box

I find it puzzling that all of this advice has a come forth, yet no one has bothered to ask what casting style are you pursuing? What rod line setup? Restart.

When you attend a major Spey gathering such as the Sandy Clave, you will see excellent demonstrations by masters of the trade. All offering expert advise on the techniques they are demonstrating. Which of these techniques & the little tid-bits, nuggets contained within, we choose to incorporate into our own casting, is up to each of us to decipher. It all works. Will it work for you, on your river, your rod/line/fly setup? Watch & listen to everyone. Take it all in. Every once in a while someone will say something that will strike a nerve. These are what I call aha moments.

Key position, \\\\ /, 10:00/2:00? Drift/pause or CMCL? Raise to key or stay inside the box? What box? Anchor position, point P, 180į principal? Where exactly is key position? How many back slashes before the forward slash? High stop? How high? Follow through? Why is it no one talks about follow through? How can I make this rod do more of the work, so I don't have to? Food for thought. Monday morning workout.
fredaevans, Rick J, Pere and 3 others like this.

I fish because the voices inside my head tell me to.

Last edited by JDJones; 04-09-2016 at 04:35 PM.
JDJones is offline  
post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-09-2016, 06:25 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,937
To me this following video represents the "best DH fishing casting stroke". Both arms are used about as much and force comes mostly from the upper back muscles and shoulders.




This casting stroke I like for very long cast. It is an overhead casting stroke but works for Spey too but it is very challenging to master. Hand travel paths are made easy to see.




Knut Syrstad did use that style for Spey. Nowadays most competition casters prefer "no stop style" and use overhang to keep line loop narrow but IMHO Syrstad style still rocks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR9se2KY8s4
kalamaman likes this.
bender is offline  
post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-09-2016, 09:50 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by reelstory View Post
The demonstrator described the cast from the key position as follows; The cast is made by moving the rod forward from the key position as a backslash, \\\\\\, and maintain that position until the final moment, snapping to a forward slash, /.
This, to me, makes it clear what to do, stopping with a high rod, but I wonder if it is best to accomplish this movement with a lot of body movement, especially maintaining the backslash, rather than just arm movement. Your thoughts?
I think body movement is not necessary for most of the average fishing casts performance vise but I like to use it it because it gives me a basic timing. While this "backlash" technique is useful for overhead casting it is not necessary for DH Spey casting. Andrew Moy speaks and uses it but his style is unique and very top hand dominated.

In this video it is used and again it is an overhead cast but a DH cast anyway. Here it does not do much for the line speed either but perhaps he uses it to time the cast as well but it definitely makes room for bottom hand use!

smooth likes this.
bender is offline  
post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-10-2016, 02:35 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 45
I throw long belly lines, and use a lot of body and hand movement to achieve the \\\\ when I have most/all of the belly out. In shorter casts - not that much.

But. While I do it almost religiously, I still think body movement is a lot of work compared to what you achieve. Here's why:

1. If you do it as prescribed, only as a translation of the rod, keeping the angle constant (\\\\) the rod tip moves exactly as much as your body. You gain nothing from having a long rod. A lot of energy used for small rod tip movement.

2. Body is moved first, when there is very little load in the rod: you gain nothing from the use of big leg muscles, since there is no big work to be done.

3. When standing in the river, possibly wading deep, the body movement can take a lot of energy. You are working against the water, and may also need to readjust your stance after shifting your weight from one leg to another.

The body movement achieves a preload in the rod before the other movements. Sometimes I can achieve the same preload with a very aggressive V-loop, and then I can just skip moving my body, and save a good deal of energy.
Jim and Botsari like this.

Cast, swing, step, cast, swing, cast, cast, cast...
Jarmo_H is offline  
post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-10-2016, 02:34 PM
Registered User
 
Rick J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Northern California until I retired - now home waters are where the fish are - retired and living in a 32' Artic Fox trailer
Posts: 2,732
I totally agree with JD - it really depends on what line system you are casting - most of the posts about body and arm motion pertains to long lines but this all goes out the window with short line systems where you need none of this - it is all a very short compact stroke really just hands and upper arms - you can rock/rotate the body - often used in underhand style casting.

A really good description I once read for standard overhead casting with a single hander is to make a gun our off your right hand - the back cast stops with the hand opposite your ear and barrel of gun pointing straight up - the forward cast is just rotating the wrist from a straight position to a closed position firing the gun - you will be looking right over the top of the gun - this gives a very good high stop and uses very little arm motion! - once you stop you can extend arm and follow the line down
Pere likes this.
Rick J is offline  
post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-10-2016, 03:30 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rogue River
Posts: 11,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick J View Post
I totally agree with JD - it really depends on what line system you are casting - most of the posts about body and arm motion pertains to long lines but this all goes out the window with short line systems where you need none of this - it is all a very short compact stroke really just hands and upper arms - you can rock/rotate the body - often used in underhand style casting.

A really good description I once read for standard overhead casting with a single hander is to make a gun our off your right hand - the back cast stops with the hand opposite your ear and barrel of gun pointing straight up - the forward cast is just rotating the wrist from a straight position to a closed position firing the gun - you will be looking right over the top of the gun - this gives a very good high stop and uses very little arm motion! - once you stop you can extend arm and follow the line down
+1 with the above and Jim's comments. In real terms how far do you really need to cast .... save for 'show and tell?' Me ... maybe 70 feet at the most for real fishing. Byeond that is a Woop-Woop and I can still chuck line.

Fave rod is 11.5 foot long glass (yes a real glass spey!!) loaded with a Steve Godshall custom cut line built for short casting.

Mz Dog-Dog has reviewed, and approved, this combo. Getting my health/legs back under me so time to get back on the water even if only 'toe deep.'

fae



ErieSkagit likes this.

Fred Evans - White City, Oregon
fredaevans is offline  
post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-10-2016, 04:38 PM
Registered User
 
Rick J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Northern California until I retired - now home waters are where the fish are - retired and living in a 32' Artic Fox trailer
Posts: 2,732
sorry to distract from original post but Fred - great to hear things are improving!! Was up for a short time last week and met Nate Bailey and cast for a bit of time and reminisced about the original Rouge clinic with Steve and Way. Hope to get up and fish with him later!!
Rick J is offline  
post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 05:12 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by bender View Post
To me this following video represents the "best DH fishing casting stroke". Both arms are used about as much and force comes mostly from the upper back muscles and shoulders.


This casting stroke I like for very long cast. It is an overhead casting stroke but works for Spey too but it is very challenging to master. Hand travel paths are made easy to see.
When viewed from the front, what do you think would be the angle of the rod in these strokes? (If applied in, say, a switch cast.) It looks like the shorter stroke would be canted significantly. Longer strokes seem to end up with the rod butt in the arm pit of the caster, so it seems that the rod would be more vertical in these strokes.

I have seen few discussions of this aspect of the forward stroke, that is, how canted the rod is. Still, you would think that this angle has an effect on adherence to the 180 degree principle. Maybe other consequences also.

In the video below, Simon Gawesworth is casting a 64' belly line with an 13.5' rod (IIRC) at time 0:57. To me it seems that the forward stroke begins canted but ends more or less vertical. Or?


Like an unconscious answer to a question that has been troubling me for long, or a sudden opportunity to achieve something valuable I had almost given up on, the fish is there.
smooth is offline  
post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 09:10 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by smooth View Post
When viewed from the front, what do you think would be the angle of the rod in these strokes? (If applied in, say, a switch cast.) It looks like the shorter stroke would be canted significantly. Longer strokes seem to end up with the rod butt in the arm pit of the caster, so it seems that the rod would be more vertical in these strokes.

I have seen few discussions of this aspect of the forward stroke, that is, how canted the rod is. Still, you would think that this angle has an effect on adherence to the 180 degree principle. Maybe other consequences also.

In the video below, Simon Gawesworth is casting a 64' belly line with an 13.5' rod (IIRC) at time 0:57. To me it seems that the forward stroke begins canted but ends more or less vertical. Or?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz8OSwBbXvY&t=0m57s
When Spey casting the delivery casting stroke can be done using perfectly upright rod when anchor gets casted to the side. The back cast on Switch cast forms the anchor almost rod length away as well although there comes no centrifugal effect.

Upright rod improves cast efficiency a lot when overhead casting! I believe it improves Spey casting as well but less because Spey casts have more elements which can have more influence.

The D-loop hit me occacionally which is more than I like and I think it is because my back cast was not good and there came too much sideways component which obviously is some kind of wave. What is good there is no danger to get hooked by fly at least when I use long leader but my hat needs to have a chin strap. Cap usually stay when I wear it "old school" way.

I must say I can't do 180 principle consistently! Only on Snake Roll. Single Spey only when I cast shortish Scandi head and I have fished longer without changing anything. I just try to land anchor mostly to upriver to avoid line collision when anchor lifts out.

Esa
smooth likes this.
bender is offline  
post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 07:36 PM
Registered User
 
eriefisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Lower Grand River, Saugeen and everything else wet.
Posts: 905
Quote:
Originally Posted by bender View Post
I must say I can't do 180 principle consistently! Only on Snake Roll. Single Spey only when I cast shortish Scandi head and I have fished longer without changing anything. I just try to land anchor mostly to upriver to avoid line collision when anchor lifts out.

Esa
180 may not be completely necessary at least with a scandi and likely a longer line. Watch from the 25 minute mark for an explanation.

Dan


Which way to the river?
eriefisher is offline  
post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 06-06-2019, 09:08 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by bender View Post
When Spey casting the delivery casting stroke can be done using perfectly upright rod when anchor gets casted to the side. The back cast on Switch cast forms the anchor almost rod length away as well although there comes no centrifugal effect.

Upright rod improves cast efficiency a lot when overhead casting! I believe it improves Spey casting as well but less because Spey casts have more elements which can have more influence.
For overhead casting, I agree. For spey casting, I simply do not know. Hence these posts.

My understanding is that the anchor is close to the caster in classic underhand casting where very little power is used to form the D-loop. An upright (vertical) rod in the forward stroke would therefore have the D-loop and the forward stroke pretty close to each other.

With longer spey lines and flat (dynamic) sweep, the anchor can be the famous rod length's away from the caster. In this case, a forward stroke with an upright rod could have a distance of 4 metres (13') between the two railroad tracks, the D-loop and the outgoing cast. That is quite a distance.

But like I said, I do not know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bender
I must say I can't do 180 principle consistently! Only on Snake Roll. Single Spey only when I cast shortish Scandi head and I have fished longer without changing anything. I just try to land anchor mostly to upriver to avoid line collision when anchor lifts out.
I have found 180 to be a silent killer. Casting long lines, long days, at some point the casts begin to deteriorate. Eventually, after so much experience (in trying to fix the wrong things) I have found that 180 is almost always the culprit. Typically overrotating with the body, shoulder or hands has sent the D-loop out of the desired plane.

Thanks for your insights once again.

Like an unconscious answer to a question that has been troubling me for long, or a sudden opportunity to achieve something valuable I had almost given up on, the fish is there.
smooth is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Spey Pages forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Head position for casting Street Walker Tackle 5 09-21-2011 02:13 AM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome