New Spey Cast Debuts at Sandy Speyclave - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-12-2005, 01:54 PM Thread Starter
The Frugal Flyfisher
 
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New Spey Cast Debuts at Sandy Speyclave

Well, I am reassured. I showed my still evolving new cast, the AIUPPY SNAP-V I am calling it, to a variety of knowledgeable spey folk at the Sandy
River Speyclave - Dana (Dana Sturn), Speyrd (Leroy Teeple), Speybro (Simon Gawesworth), Steve Rajeff, MJC (Poppy or Mr. RedShed), GPearson (Greg Pearson), etc., and all said they had never seen anything exactly like it before, which reinforced my research over the past few months as I developed the cast to be introduced to the spey community. More gratifyingly, several, including Dana and Simon, commented that it appeared to have some useful applications. So here forthwith is the story and description of the new AIUPPY SNAP-V CAST for the Spey Pages community.

Over the last few years, as I have become more proficient with spey casting, I have become dissatisfied with some aspects of a couple of the more modern spey casts - the Snap-T and the Circle (or Reverse C cast), which I tend to call the Circle-C. While both these "setup" casts are quite useful at times, especially with sinking leaders, sink tips and/or heavy flies, they do have their weaknesses, as do all casts. In particular, with both casts when bringing the fly more or less directly upstream, one is forced to finish the crux movement with the rod tip dropping quickly to the water, or risk serious damage to the rod tip, not to mention the cast, from the fly, sinking leader and/or sink tip slamming into the rod. Additionally with both casts, but especially the Snap-T, there is very little precise control of where the fly lands. With the Snap-T especially the fly and leader and sometimes some of the sink tip can end up in a bit of a stromash (as Derek Brown puts it) of slack on the water. Not a good start to any cast.

In cogitating over this problem this past winter, while practicing single hand spey casts in my living room (with the Mel-O practice system, familiar to many FFF certified casting instructors), and thinking about the fundamental principles of all fly casting, as my nature and training has taught me to do, I had a Eureka! moment of insight, leading to my development of the SNAP-V CAST.

Spey casting is all about D-Loops (or, in its more advanced form, V-loops) UNDER the rod tip, yet here we are, in both the Snap-T and Circle-C setup casts, trying to make the fly and line go OVER the rod tip. I asked the question - why? By doing that (forcing a weighted fly to go over the rod tip) we are simply inviting the inevitable - immutable gravity doing what it does best - to ruin our cast, not to mention our rod, with a painful collision.

I thought why not USE gravity to keep the fly and leader and sink tip away from the rod tip, by bringing it all UNDER THE ROD TIP, something we do every time we back cast a D or V loop in our line anyway. My several decades of single hand fly fishing have taught me when I cast a heavy sinking head or weighted flies to use a BELGIAN or oval cast, which brings the back cast UNDER the rod tip, forming the back cast loop BENEATH the plane of the forward cast. A Belgian back cast loop is, after all, simply a dynamic D or V-loop that never touches down on the water. This technique of taking the back cast loop under the rod tip, and then the forward cast loop around, up and over, when casting heavy shooting heads or heavily weighted sinking flies, is well known among many single hand overhead saltwater casters. I learned it from the protean Lefty Kreh some years ago, and frequently use the Belgian cast in my single hand overhead work, and teach it to all my intermediate and advanced students.

Perhaps that is why I thought of turning the Snap-T on its head, if you will, in a mirror image of itself tilted more to the horizontal, instead of the usual more vertically oriented snap, which normally sends the fly flying out of control up into the air to crash down in slack on landing.

Thus, one concise way to describe the SNAP-V cast is a HORIZONTALLY configured Snap-T, with the rod tip moving ABOVE the line in a very short sharp "V" shape snap with the point upstream and parallel to the stream bank, while the rod is pointed more or less directly across stream, thus forming an accelerated V-Loop UNDER the rod tip that jumps the line quickly upstream, with the fly, leader, sink tip and line ON THE BOTTOM LEG OF THE V, under the rod tip.

After the snap of the SNAP-V cast, the line is permitted to straighten out fully IN THE AIR, upstream of the caster, then is either allowed to drop directly to the water, if a high upstream anchor is desired, or is PULLED DOWNSTREAM WHILE IN THE AIR to whatever anchor point the caster desires depending on the angle of the forward cast. This technique allows for precise placement of the fly and anchor point pretty much exactly where one wants to put it - with practice. This is especially important with a heavy fly and sinking leader or sink tip, because you want to form your back cast D-loop immediately on touch down of the fly and line, before it all starts to sink. On the other hand, if you are fishig with a floating leader/floating line, you can simply allow the current to move the anchor point down into position, after a high upstream placement, and casually form your D-loop at the best point for your delivery cast, whatever its angle across stream. It is also, if that is your druthers, easy to go into a Perry Poke move at this point, before forming your D-loop.

Thus, with the SNAP-V CAST, at least for myself, I believe I have mitigated the two biggest weaknesses, to me, of both the Snap-T and Circle or Reverse-C/Circle-C casts - the possibility of hitting the rod tip with the fly/leader combination, and the difficulty of precise placement of the anchor point; while retaining the biggest advantage of both the Snap-T and Circle casts - the ability to pull a heavily weighted fly or sink tip out of the water from the downstream dangle and get it into play again very quickly without additional maneuvers (i.e., additional roll casts to bring up the sunk stuff).

There is another benefit to the SNAP-V cast, in that the rod, at the finish of the snap, can stay up in the air at whatever angle you please, or be brought down as low as you want, depending on your style and what you want to do with the cast. Additionally, I find the cast, at least as I perform it, to be a highly efficient (meaning minimal stroking) and smooth, even elegant cast, with a VERY large range and degree of direction change possible for the final presentation stroke, when mastered. Also, the SNAP-V has a high degree of control over slack line, at every point in the cast, a decided advantage in forming efficient loops and good casts.

Here are some critical points for anyone wanting to try this cast.

First - It is critical to the success of the cast that there be NO SLACK in the line on the dangle below you, with the rod tip pointing down the line and near the water surface before starting the pickup for the cast.

Second - There is no "shotgun lift" before going into the snap, but rather a STEADILY ACCELERATING LIFT AND SWING from a fully tensioned dangle to a position around 90 degrees across stream and about 30 to 45 degrees (or higher) angle above the water, at which point the now loaded (horizontally bent) rod is instantly stopped in a quick "speed up and stop" or "power snap" of the rod tip, thus suddenly unloading the rod and sending the line upstream in a very tight V-Loop (below the rod tip).

Third - It is best to NOT MOVE THE ROD (immediately) AFTER THE POWER SNAP - especially vertically. Generally it is best to wait for the fly to pass under the rod and upstream before making any other moves with the rod.

Fourth - Wait for the line to fully straighten out in the air upstream before placing the anchor point where you want by either allowing the line to drop unimpeded to the water, or pulling it downstream - while in the air - to your chosen anchor point.

Fifth - Once the power snap is done and the fly has passed upstream of the rod you can do pretty much whatever you want with the rod attitude, depending on your basic style of forming a D-loop. If you like the John and Amy Hazel style of keeping the rod at a 45 degree angle at all times when making your sweeps, by all means leave it at that angle (however, be cautious of introducing slack). If you prefer, as I do, starting near the water and sweeping with an ever rising rod tip into the firing position, you can simply follow the line down to the water - KEEPING SOME TENSION ON THE LINE AT ALL TIMES (remember - no slack) - with the rod tip and start your D-loop sweep from there.

Sixth - If one has to do an exceptionally powerful lift and snap with deeply sunk stuff, one can dampen the tendency of the upstream line extension to jerk the fly back at the end of its upstream flight (thus introducing slack) by following or "chasing" the line with the rod in an upstream cushioning drift in a subtle braking move to stop the fly before pulling it back downstream to your chosen anchor point.

Seventh - The SNAP-V cast, I believe, is best done using a medium/fast to fast action rod.

Finally, and a caveat, this cast was developed and tested using very short, short and medium belly spey lines (Airflo Skagit, Delta and Delta Long lines, to be specific). It may not be suitable for long belly line casting.

There are some other fine points and permutations, once one has mastered the basics of the cast, but they can wait for further discussion.

Comments, criticisms, questions, calls for clarification and quips welcome.

Video clip to follow - when our high water recedes some.

Larry Aiuppy (LBA)


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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-12-2005, 11:06 PM
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Larry,

We were blessed with a demo of this cast today by Leroy Teeple at the N. Santiam Spey Casters monthly practice session (and today, G-Loomis demo day). Since I often learn better from the written word than even from a demo, I didn't fully get it when watching. Coupling your description, I think I get it now.

Thanks for the post, and thanks to Leroy for the demo. I'll give it a try next time out.

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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-13-2005, 12:57 AM
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The dilfferences

Can you explain the differences between your Snap-V cast, a Perry Poke that has a set-up to far up stream or even a "Z" cast that has landed to far up stream. The difference I see is the sweep/fold portion of the cast is like a double spey and not straight forward like the Perry Poke. I'm not knocking the cast, I think that learning to control the set-up cast and controlling the tip is what spey casting's next level of casting abilities is all about. Therefore, I like your cast. Klem

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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-13-2005, 01:52 AM
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saw todays demo (thanks Leroy) and had fun playing with the cast. A poor caster's interpretation:

switch to anchor, drop-n-sweep downriver, sweep upriver, D-loop and out.

Another fun cast. from a fishing standpoint it seems to have an extra pause as the line passes upriver to anchor, and the initial horizonal pull from the dangle would require a stiffer rod, or more effort, or both, to move really heavy tips and big flies when compared to the vertical pull of the standard snaps. I'll be sure to give it some river time in fishing situations, esp. with overhanging brush around, to see if it can help me avoid tangles where other casts can't.

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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-14-2005, 02:14 PM
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got a chance to try this out the past two days and i'm beginning to like it. using the T&T 1307 with a SA short 7/8 and mono leader just to get the basics of it down. the ability to move the rod downstream to drop the anchor in the right place is key, i was getting it withinin an inch or two instead of a foot or two with the snap-t. i understand that is the same with the snap-t but it seems easier for me to be acurate pulling the line horizontaly rather than the lift and snap of the t. definitly worth more work and trying the tips line as well.

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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-14-2005, 02:26 PM
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I've seen this before several times. This is how several folks who were trying to learn a snap-T based on rumor or internet chat (without first hand visuals or instruction) ended up learning it for themselves. Since I met them in a class setting I've found myself saying "well that works perfectly well but a snap goes like this". When asked "can I still do it the other way?" I said sure works great!

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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-17-2005, 01:59 AM
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Larry,

whew! I thought you were going to steal my fire and tell everyone about the Ogopogo Cast!

I think your cast is very cool and has great applications. I'm looking forward to seeing the video.



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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-17-2005, 04:33 PM
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OgoopoGo Enhancer Spey Line

Dana, is there any truth to the rumor that Rio plans to introduce a new line, the Ogoopogo Enhancer, to facilitate the cast?
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-20-2005, 02:03 AM Thread Starter
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Response to Klem

Klem, I've spent some time thinking about this and researching it. I am basing my answer on the description and pictures of the Perry Poke in Simon Gawesworth's book, Spey Casting, so we can all be on the same page (no pun intended). I have also extensively reviewed Ed Ward's demonstrations of the Perry Poke in the Sandy Speyclave video.

For purposes of clarity and visualization all these descriptions are based on a river left position, either no wind or an upstream wind, right hand up on the rod. This (river left) is the orientation of most of the pictures in the Gawesworth book, and the position Ed Ward is casting from in the video.

First of all, yes, you are at least partially right. "The sweep/fold portion of the cast is like a double spey," is correct, but this is only ONE of the differences, and far from the most important one.

In the Perry Poke, when the anchor is landed (prior to dumping all the slack into a pile right in front of you - the "poke") ALL OF THE LINE, in a big "c" shaped curve, and the fly, is on the water UPSTREAM of the target, and the rod is in firing position in your top hand upstream and off your upstream shoulder, prior to doing the poke move essentially across stream. In the Perry Poke even if you landed your anchor way too far upstream of you, ALL OF THE LINE WOULD STILL LAND UPSTREAM OF THE TARGET, as well as the rod being off your upstream shoulder, prior to doing the line dump "poke" prior to the D-loop formation and forward cast.

In my Snap-V cast, when the anchor is placed on the water, prior to the sweep/D-loop formation, only the fly, leader, and perhaps a few feet of sink tip, if you are using a very short leader, a total of about a rods length, are upstream of the target. The rod is across the body and pointed DOWNSTREAM with the top arm across the body and the top hand on the DOWNSTREAM side of the body. When using a Skagit head the line should be in pretty much a straight line, with no slack or curve, from the rod tip back to the fly. Longer belly lines and longer casts will require somewhat more line downstream. At this point most of the fly line will be DOWNSTREAM of the target. The next move from this position is a sweep of the rod back around and upstream (creating a "white mouse" or "roostertail" of spray, similar to the sweep move of a double spey), for D-loop formation and into firing position off the upstream shoulder, with the next move being the actual forward delivery cast across stream. It is, I think, nothing like a "too far upstream" Perry Poke setup.

As for the "Z,"Snap-Z" or Zorro "Z" cast, at least as defined by George Cook in the Sandy Speyclave video (the only place I have seen it publicly explained and demonstrated), it (the Snap-Z) is only for floating lines and non-weighted flies, since the snap is very brief and done with a downstream oriented rod and very little line lift. Something that would never work with deeply sunk weighted flies and sink tips, since, once again, unlike the Aiuppy Snap-V cast, you are trying to bring the tip of the line back ABOVE the rod tip.

In both cases, the Perry Poke setup and the "Z" cast setup, there is no purposeful FULL AERIALIZING OF THE LINE UPSTREAM of the caster like the SNAP-V requires. This complete "backcast" directly upstream is ESSENTIAL to the crux move of the Snap-V cast - which is the CONTROLLED pulling of the straightened line WHILE IN THE AIR back downstream to precisely place the anchor, preparatory to doing the sweep around and back up to the D-loop formation between the caster and the anchored fly.

Additionally, as regards comparison to the "Z" cast, the "snap" of the Snap-V cast is performed with the rod pointed more or less directly ACROSS stream, perpendicular to the stream flow; while it is pointed more or less DOWNSTREAM, parallel to the stream flow, in the Snap-Z cast.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, the "snap" of the Snap-V MUST be done with the rod tip ABOVE the line, so that the line comes UNDER the rod tip, not above it as with BOTH the Snap-T and Snap-Z casts.

Thanks for your question, Klem. I hope I answered it sufficiently.

I hope this helps clarify some things about the Snap-V cast. See also my second post about the Snap-V, with more description of the cast. Helpful I hope.


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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-20-2005, 02:10 AM Thread Starter
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Response to SSPey post

Steve (SSPey), to comment on your interpretation, as I read it:

"Switch to anchor, drop-n-sweep downriver, sweep upriver, D-loop and out."

Lets break your interpretation of the cast steps into sections.


First - "switch to anchor"

Well, no. The opening move is decidedly NOT a switch cast. If you are seeing a switch cast as the beginning of the Snap-V cast, something is wrong.

Properly, the Snap-V starts very much like a Snap-T, only with an orientation of the rod more perpendicular to the stream flow when the snap is made. Additionally, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, the snap is UPSIDE DOWN compared to the conventional Snap-T. The line DOES NOT ANCHOR at this point, but rather flies upstream IN THE AIR to a FULLY STRAIGHTENED OUT position IN THE AIR upstream of the caster.


Next - "drop-n-sweep downriver"

Again no. To use your terminology, it would be "sweep-n-drop downriver," in that order.

The fully aerialized line is pulled back downstream WHILE IT IS STILL IN THE AIR, and is guided down to a landing by the rod tip. The rod tip, all the line and the anchor point should all meet the water surface at about the same time (at least the way I do it), with placement of the anchor point exactly where you want it when it meets the water.


Next - "sweep upriver"

YES! Exactly. Do a "white mouse" double spey style sweep back upstream.


Next - "D-loop and out."

Yes. Precisely. The upstream sweep ends with a D-loop off the upstream shoulder and a forward cast to your target.

Hope this helps. See my answer to Klem, and my revised Snap-v description in the separate following post, for further elucidation.

Thanks for your comments. It sharpens my mind to puzzle out your meaning as you interpret the cast, leading, I think to a better understanding on my part as to how to best describe the cast, absent any visual reference (which I hope to have coming soon).


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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-20-2005, 02:18 AM Thread Starter
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Revised SNAP-V cast description

After pondering the questions of Klem, and the comment from SSPey, especially, I spent some time thinking about how to better describe my cast in writing. Here is a revised, somewhat simplified (and hopefully improved) description of the Aiuppy Snap-V cast.

1) Make the cast from the left bank with right hand up, or right bank with left hand up, when there is either no wind or an upstream wind. Body facing the target.

2) After the fishing swing, begin with full downstream dangle and tension on the line (to allow current to raise line and fly as far up as possible in the water column), rod tip touching or very near water surface.

3) With steadily accelerating movement raise and swing the rod at the same time to a point more or less perpendicular to the stream flow, pointing about 90 degrees across the stream and lifted to around 30 to 60 degrees angle above the water (10 or 11 o'clock).

4) Finish the above move with a powerful, short "power snap" or "speed up and stop" of the rod tip in an UPSIDE DOWN SNAP-T MOVEMENT, to form a sharp V-loop UNDER the rod tip, essentially making a horizontal "Belgian backcast" upstream and parallel to the stream flow.

5) Allow the line to fully straighten out IN THE AIR above the water and upstream, as if doing a strongly horizontal, sideways backcast "Belgian" style.

6) On completion of this horizontal and sideways "backcast," and BEFORE THE LINE FALLS TO THE WATER, pull the line IN THE AIR back downstream, and follow the line down with the rod as you pull it and it falls, placing the anchor point exactly where you want it upstream of you.

7) On completion of the above move your top hand and arm should be crossed over your chest, with the rod pointing downstream, preferably with the rod tip near the water.

8) From the above point, sweep the rod around and back upstream in a double spey type sweep, creating a "white mouse" or small "rooster tail" of spray, continuing back and up to firing position and forming a D-loop on a line parallel to your target line and about halfway between you and your anchor point.

9) Make your forward delivery cast.

10) Remember, this is a cast to be used in place of a Snap-T, Circle or Reverse C cast. Use it when you would use those casts, if you find it helpful.

I am hoping to get a video to Dana to convert to digital for the Spey Pages sometime in the next two weeks. Dealing with business deadlines and high water right now.


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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-10-2008, 05:37 PM
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circle c snap t etc

Hi ive been reading and practicing this cast for a few years now and ive begun to understand that each and every different river ie height flow etc alters or should i say i have to alter the cast for all different conditions.
it,s alright teaching and learning the basics but put it to practise in say a deep sluggish river with a heavy sunk tip or a fast shallow river with a very heavy subk tip or even sunk line and you will see what i mean.
i was taught on a nice flow with a floating line pretty nice great cast !
got to my river deep sluggish and heavy tube and sink tip and the thing wouldnt work !
mastered it now but it allneeds to be altered a little to compensate.
at the end the previous writer is correct it,s all about the d loop get that to work and it will fly but to do that ie the d loop you have to alter the cast a little bit for each and every condition.
too many of my friends have been put off when after some lessons on a perfect condition they go to thier river use heavy flies or sunk tips and they give up quickly.

just some thoughts
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-11-2008, 01:34 AM
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Why is it necesseary to have a whole lot of fancy names for "getting the line off the water".
And why have a lot of fancy names for "Casting the thing out there". Why do we get casts named after rivers, when if you use it on another river, does it become something else. If there was a Crap River would, or could, we get a Crap cast.
If I lift the rod fast and give it a few up/down flicks its a snap roll or wiggly worm and if I do it sideways its a belly down wigglyy worm or if I roll the tip and it goes around in circles its what, a loop the loop roll.
If I'm using shooting heads and I change from a 50 foot head to a 30 foot head with a sink tip am I going from Scandi to Skagit.
If I don't fish rivers but the ocean, will it it be OK if I call it an Indian Ocean Cast. If I use a Belgian cast in New Zealand does it become a Nzed or Uggg cast and if not why not?
I know this is getting ridiculous but from where I sit so is this stuff about spey casting. Lets agree to get real and call it what it is. Just casting flies.
The descrtiptions of these things are so weird that it defies reason.
I think its time I just went fishing with my DH rods off the rocks. I wonder what I could conjure up for a new "Spey" cast to fit that. But it isn't Spey casting at all, nor Scandi nor Skagit, its just using shooting heads on fly rods.
How does where you do it, got anything to do with what it is.
Like if I go to Dirk Hasrtog Island dpoes my cast become the Dirk Dunk?
Its too much for little old me.
MaxG.
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-11-2008, 02:45 AM
 
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If I'm using shooting heads and I change from a 50 foot head to a 30 foot head with a sink tip am I going from Scandi to Skagit.

Hi Max... I really think you have a point, as well as you are at the heart of the Modern Spey Casting Style, It`s versatility........ When you use a 50 foot shooting head, well that is as Scandinavian as you can get it, if you go wven down to 10 feet, well, it is still Scandinavian.... Well, maybe some over the pond think something else....... Yes, we have used super heavy super short shooting heads for decades here in Scandinavia as well, we have drawn a lot of different paths with the tip to get anchor where we need them to where we are fishing, but from there to try to steel something, to try to name something up after ourself is a lack of understanding of the tradition of the spey casting sport..... you can not really term a cast from the weight and length combo of the line, but sure poppy put it right, it doesn`t matter how you get out there as long as you are happy about it, and get it done, but then again, call it what it is....

And this threads cast, looking forward to seeing pictures/videos of it soon, so we can see what it really is.....

Keep on, I think you have a great page folks.....
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-11-2008, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max.garth View Post
Why is it necesseary to have a whole lot of fancy names for "getting the line off the water".
And why have a lot of fancy names for "Casting the thing out there". Why do we get casts named after rivers, when if you use it on another river, does it become something else. If there was a Crap River would, or could, we get a Crap cast.
If I lift the rod fast and give it a few up/down flicks its a snap roll or wiggly worm and if I do it sideways its a belly down wigglyy worm or if I roll the tip and it goes around in circles its what, a loop the loop roll.
If I'm using shooting heads and I change from a 50 foot head to a 30 foot head with a sink tip am I going from Scandi to Skagit.
If I don't fish rivers but the ocean, will it it be OK if I call it an Indian Ocean Cast. If I use a Belgian cast in New Zealand does it become a Nzed or Uggg cast and if not why not?
I know this is getting ridiculous but from where I sit so is this stuff about spey casting. Lets agree to get real and call it what it is. Just casting flies.
The descrtiptions of these things are so weird that it defies reason.
I think its time I just went fishing with my DH rods off the rocks. I wonder what I could conjure up for a new "Spey" cast to fit that. But it isn't Spey casting at all, nor Scandi nor Skagit, its just using shooting heads on fly rods.
How does where you do it, got anything to do with what it is.
Like if I go to Dirk Hasrtog Island dpoes my cast become the Dirk Dunk?
Its too much for little old me.
MaxG.

agreed, Two handed casting is two handed casting
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