Rod noise during the forward stroke - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 08:47 AM Thread Starter
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Rod noise during the forward stroke

I've been fishing a Beulah Onyx 8140 for a while now. Playing with a couple full-floating lines from 47'-54', trying to dial in my technique and ideal line match. So far, no matter which line or technique I use, I get rod noise on the power stroke... you guys have heard it, the "whiff" of a light graphite tube cutting through air at high speed😉.

It's not line noise (I can tell the difference), the lines I'm casting are within the rod's grain window, I'm getting decent line speed and loop shape, I'm not working too hard, my rod ferrules aren't loosening, there's no indication (that I'm recognizing) that I'm overworking the rod or myself. I do not experience this "whiff" noise with my shorter, lighter rods when casting shorter lines/heads.

I've read/heard it said several times that a good spey cast is almost silent. Is this always true, specifically when casting longer rods and lines?

-Sean
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 11:33 AM
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Perhaps some ideas here.

https://www.theflyfishingforum.com/f...-noise.361685/

You can catch a lot of fish, and you can keep a lot of fish. But you can't do both very long. Jim Timmins
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 11:49 AM
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When I first got on the board, the most often heard piece of advice was, Slow down. Slower yet.

I think it's appropriate here.
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 01:15 PM Thread Starter
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There are some interesting points there reelstory... food for thought and experimentation.

SLSS I will try slowing down some more... I have been working on my "slow-ness" for some time now. Sometimes I do find myself relapsing into the more-power trap though. I suppose slowing down more is going to involve even more anticipation of the anchor to avoid d/v- loop collapse and a sticky anchors?

-Sean
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 01:17 PM
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I agree, you’re pushing the rod on the forward stroke with your arms and overpowering it. Hence the poor wand is wheezing and so will you after an hour or so of that kind of workout. Let the rod load with the D loop and let its length and leverage propel the the line foreword with a minimum of effort on your part. Learn to properly cast, present, and fish 30 to 50 feet of line with your new outfit before you start aiming for the horizon. The longer rods, casting lines with longer heads, require precise timing to load to properly cast. This is probably why you are unconsciously over compensating with your forward stroke. Just try slowing down your rod motion, making sure of your leader and fly placement, as you ease into your pivot and D loop before squeezing the trigger on your forward casting stroke.
As with your previous experience, you will know when all the stages of the switch, single or double spey are coming together as an 80 or 150 foot cast will feel graceful and effortless and other anglers and people will start to gather to watch and photograph you casting. This may take awhile and will require a lot of practice and enjoyment along the way.
Then I’ll talk you into purchasing a true spey rod from 16 to 18 feet matched with grand spey lines with 90 plus foot heads to complete your perverse descent into spey madness.
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Last edited by Jim Elie; 06-26-2020 at 01:38 PM.
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Captcaveman View Post
There are some interesting points there reelstory... food for thought and experimentation.

SLSS I will try slowing down some more... I have been working on my "slow-ness" for some time now. Sometimes I do find myself relapsing into the more-power trap though. I suppose slowing down more is going to involve even more anticipation of the anchor to avoid d/v- loop collapse and a sticky anchors?
My current fascination is trying to use as little energy as is required to et her job done, prompted by Mark Shamburg's description of his "lazy' casting. Not overshooting anchors, not barking the reel. I've realized that on the lift, if done slow enough, by the time the line clears the surface, the rod has enough bend to do the job. More power to rip the line from the surface quicker, creates a deeper bend, and then a line with more speed than required to get it to the anchor point, and the problems that result from trying to arrest that line speed. If I do it just right, slow enough, the line seems to be just floating against the unbending of the rod while all I'm really doing is steering it to its anchor. Then the trick is to move to the firing posting with no more effort, and essentially reverse the process on the power stroke. The line travels just as far.

That said, fishing with a friend the other day, I was fishing my 12'6 with a Skagit, and he a 14ft with a Vector. I asked to take a turn, never having cast that setup, and knowing as I was doing it I was wrong, couldn't stop myself from trying too hard. I had to blow a couple anchors before I settled down and used essentially the same soft stroke I'd been suit with my short Skagit, with shut the addition of a lift to firing position.
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 04:04 PM
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An observation. These theories are all very sound, and they all work, but I think one has to make allowances for what one is throwing. If one is casting 20 feet of T-20 and a weighted rabbit leech about 3 inches long, the fly gets buried pretty quickly. When I am throwing such arrangements (admitting that most of the art has gone out of the equation at that point), I have to speed up the process to keep everything taut and moving and keep the fly close enough to the surface that the forward cast can lift the fly. If I do everything perfectly, I can do this with only the average amount of energy applied to the forward cast, but most of the time I have to muscle it. I am sure that a caster more skilled than I would not have to resort to such things, but it is worth noting that at least some of even the best casters change their approach to the terminal tackle. There is a video somewhere of Travis Johnson casting an ungodly-large rabbit leech for winter fish on the Sandy. His technique faced with that is very, very fast. He does not hammer the forward cast, but his sweep is very aggressive and compact, obviously aimed at developing a lot of line speed and backward momentum quickly. Just some observations. Maybe the moral of the story is that we will all have a much calmer demeanor if we stick with unweighted flies fished near the surface rather than dredging! But the basic advice is good. We are all tempted to overpower the forward cast.

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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 05:39 PM
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Maybe don’t think of it as slow but think of it as easing into the forward cast with a crisp stop rather than just going full tilt into the forward cast

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 07:33 PM
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pushing-too-hard as a cause of “whooooosh” is also sometimes a symptom of too much top-hand, not enough bottom-hand
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Outerhebrides View Post
An observation. These theories are all very sound, and they all work, but I think one has to make allowances for what one is throwing. If one is casting 20 feet of T-20 and a weighted rabbit leech about 3 inches long, the fly gets buried pretty quickly. When I am throwing such arrangements (admitting that most of the art has gone out of the equation at that point), I have to speed up the process to keep everything taut and moving and keep the fly close enough to the surface that the forward cast can lift the fly. If I do everything perfectly, I can do this with only the average amount of energy applied to the forward cast, but most of the time I have to muscle it. I am sure that a caster more skilled than I would not have to resort to such things, but it is worth noting that at least some of even the best casters change their approach to the terminal tackle. There is a video somewhere of Travis Johnson casting an ungodly-large rabbit leech for winter fish on the Sandy. His technique faced with that is very, very fast. He does not hammer the forward cast, but his sweep is very aggressive and compact, obviously aimed at developing a lot of line speed and backward momentum quickly. Just some observations. Maybe the moral of the story is that we will all have a much calmer demeanor if we stick with unweighted flies fished near the surface rather than dredging! But the basic advice is good. We are all tempted to overpower the forward cast.
If you are casting the set up you described (which to me is an extremely heavy rig) you need to make sure everything is on the surface all of the time. When you go to set your anchor make sure the rod tip and head hit the water first and start sweeping gently before your fly even hits the water. Don't be fast but be timely and deliberate. Start your sweep while things are still hitting the water. I found from fishing things like Freightliners with big sinking tips I need to start my sweep before the fly is in the water. Sweep gently around and when you feel the head pull slightly at the end of your sweep pull gently with your bottom hand without pausing. Its the converse of fishing a lighter head and tip on a rod where Ill set the anchor a little further back than normal then count down from five or four, sweep and pull my bottom hand. If you keep the speed of sweep and bottom hand about the same and use timing of anchor set up, sink, drift, etc, you will feel it come together.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Captcaveman View Post
I've been fishing a Beulah Onyx 8140 for a while now. Playing with a couple full-floating lines from 47'-54', trying to dial in my technique and ideal line match. So far, no matter which line or technique I use, I get rod noise on the power stroke... you guys have heard it, the "whiff" of a light graphite tube cutting through air at high speed😉.

It's not line noise (I can tell the difference), the lines I'm casting are within the rod's grain window, I'm getting decent line speed and loop shape, I'm not working too hard, my rod ferrules aren't loosening, there's no indication (that I'm recognizing) that I'm overworking the rod or myself. I do not experience this "whiff" noise with my shorter, lighter rods when casting shorter lines/heads.

I've read/heard it said several times that a good spey cast is almost silent. Is this always true, specifically when casting longer rods and lines?
That's weird, I've never heard any sounds come from the rod I'm fishing...ever. Well, that's not true I've heard tips break while casting but that sound ID'd itself. No help here but I think it probably has to be the rod because lines just slide through the guides. If the line is textured they might make an audible sound while sliding through the guides. Other than that I think it's the rod making the sound, doubt it's the wind. Weird!

I'm a line speed freek so always start slow but end very fast. Never heard a sound other than noted above. A whiff sound will occur if you deliver your cast very quickly, the rod cutting the air at high speed as the cast is delivered could cause a whiff, I've never noticed but maybe because I'd expect it. Well, that just about what you stated starting this thread. So, yeah, thin graphite rod moving quickly through the air will cause a "whiff" so it likely isn't a problem

Last edited by klickrolf; 06-26-2020 at 11:16 PM. Reason: clarification
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 11:36 PM
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This is very good counsel. I will give it a try. The concept of starting the sweep earlier has sort of occurred to me, but I have never really worked on it! Thanks for this. Always very helpful posts.

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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captcaveman View Post
I've been fishing a Beulah Onyx 8140 for a while now. Playing with a couple full-floating lines from 47'-54', trying to dial in my technique and ideal line match. So far, no matter which line or technique I use, I get rod noise on the power stroke... you guys have heard it, the "whiff" of a light graphite tube cutting through air at high speed😉.

It's not line noise (I can tell the difference), the lines I'm casting are within the rod's grain window, I'm getting decent line speed and loop shape, I'm not working too hard, my rod ferrules aren't loosening, there's no indication (that I'm recognizing) that I'm overworking the rod or myself. I do not experience this "whiff" noise with my shorter, lighter rods when casting shorter lines/heads.

I've read/heard it said several times that a good spey cast is almost silent. Is this always true, specifically when casting longer rods and lines?
I hear that swish on almost everyone's cast that I have ever been near when fishing.

My opinion? Too long of a stroke - not enough rod load due to timing issue.

Not wishing to sound like one shooting the BS but I can throw an 80 cast with a 550 grain Godshall Super Scandi line in complete silence. The only perceivable sound is that gentle zip as the line is gently swept backward to form the ever popular D loop.

My forward stroke is both short and quick taking maximum advantage of the potential energy in my rod and turning it into kinetic energy.

I have actually gotten good at this. I still cannot tell you a single Spey from a double Spey and I don't know a touch and go from a Perry Poke but my casting is very very quiet, no slurp, no poof, and no swish.

All that just to say too long a stroke with too much wasted speed and power. Shorten the delivery stroke, adjust timing and get maximum load on the rod.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 10:27 AM Thread Starter
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Been studying your videos and technique Bruce! Thanks for the help! Any chance you could give me an Equalizer 54 and 63 recommendation for the Onyx 8140?

Howdy Ard!

To the guys that think I'm casting T-20 sink tip skagity things on this rod: I'm not. Floating lines with mono leaders only.

I honestly don't believe the whiff is caused by abrupt power application or top hand use. I do not have this rod noise or any other problems with my lighter rods. I'm able to get easy, noiseless, dolphin-nosed 90'+ casts on my 6wt Platinum. On that rod I fish Beulah (Aero & Elixir) and Rio Scandi Short heads.

I went out last evening and worked on smoothing out my power stroke using a Beulah Aerohead 7/8 (this line would be light according to Beulah, they rec an 8/9 on this rod... but I don't own one yet).
I slowed/smoothed out the power application so that the whiff stops happening, but my loop shape, line speed, and turnover (without shooting any line, just casting the head) suffer terribly. If I use my normal power application (not working too hard), all the problems are solved, and if I shoot line, I can bang the reel at 120'... but there's that whiff noise no matter the distance.

If we assume my technique and power application is correct, could the whiff noise be an indicator of a line match that's not quite right... close to perfect, but a little light?

-Sean
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 10:39 AM Thread Starter
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Jim Elie, the long rods and heads sound like fun!!! I even have a river nearby that would fit such a big gun!!! But I have to figure this rod out, and justify (if there is such a thing) it's purchase first, before looking for yet another addition to my arsenal! My wife thanks you for putting an 18'er in my head😉!!!

-Sean
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