Question for you double taper lovers out there... - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 06:40 PM Thread Starter
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Question for you double taper lovers out there...

I have a Redington Hydrogen 3113 I would like to fish a double taper line on. To date I have a 240 grain Rio Scandi Short that loads the rod just right, and a 305 grain Rio Trout Spey that feels a little heavy but I make it work. I have tried a DT7F that weighs 300 grains at 45' and it feels way too light. I have read other posts on various forums that say DT7 should cast well on a 7 weight spey rod... so using this logic, a DT3 should cast well on a 3 weight spey rod. I don't mean to offend if I'm wrong, but this logic seems terribly flawed. I would like to fish a DT with 45'-50' of line past the tip, or mid head (45'-50' head) line on my trout spey rod to take advantage of the mending capabilities a DT/mid head has. Anybody have a suggestion... other than Single Hand Spey (head length is too short)?

-Sean
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 07:28 PM
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With more line out of the tip, the line gets heavier because of the fat middle section of a DT line. If you know you want to fish 45' out of the tip, perhaps get a heavier line, such as an 8 or 9 DT. PM incoming about some DT lines.

Nate

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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 07:30 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks nate
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 07:33 PM
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The idea of the DT line weight matching the rod's rating assumes all or most of the DT will be outside the rod tip. That creates a challenging amount of line for most casters to manage, a real trad longbelly casting experience.


For closer in work, 50' or so, take a 5 wt DT to try, and bring a sharpie with you the first time you fish it so you can strip off line and cast progressively longer lengths till you reach your happy place- then mark your hold point.


You can get a 4 or 5wt DT for a song on amazon. Cheapest line experiment ever.

Have fun!
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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 07:45 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks SpeySpaz. I have two 5 weight dt's with different front tapers at home. I'll try both of those my next time out! It may be a silly question, but should the rod feel underlined when casting a double taper? Or should I expect to experience the same type of feedback I get when casting a scandi head?
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-Sean
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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 09:10 PM
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Thanks SpeySpaz. I have two 5 weight dt's with different front tapers at home. I'll try both of those my next time out! It may be a silly question, but should the rod feel underlined when casting a double taper? Or should I expect to experience the same type of feedback I get when casting a scandi head?
Go to the river and report back your findings.
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 09:35 PM Thread Starter
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Definitely... when the water comes back down! Floods in central Pa this week

-Sean
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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captcaveman View Post
Thanks SpeySpaz. I have two 5 weight dt's with different front tapers at home. I'll try both of those my next time out! It may be a silly question, but should the rod feel underlined when casting a double taper? Or should I expect to experience the same type of feedback I get when casting a scandi head?
At first, it'll feel underlined and the temptation is to whip it, that's true-
but as you let more line out, a couple feet at a time, you'll feel the rod come alive. It usually takes some fiddling around and patience. Try a leader of about 8-10' at first, and a smaller fly.

DTs, especially level DT's, are nowhere near as dynamic as the shooting heads you're accustomed to and are more touchy in the wind, but that's part of the fun. It's how the DT teaches you proper casting form.
DT is a cruel mistress, but fair.

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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Captcaveman View Post
I have a Redington Hydrogen 3113 I would like to fish a double taper line on. To date I have a 240 grain Rio Scandi Short that loads the rod just right, and a 305 grain Rio Trout Spey that feels a little heavy but I make it work. I have tried a DT7F that weighs 300 grains at 45' and it feels way too light. I have read other posts on various forums that say DT7 should cast well on a 7 weight spey rod... so using this logic, a DT3 should cast well on a 3 weight spey rod. I don't mean to offend if I'm wrong, but this logic seems terribly flawed. I would like to fish a DT with 45'-50' of line past the tip, or mid head (45'-50' head) line on my trout spey rod to take advantage of the mending capabilities a DT/mid head has. Anybody have a suggestion... other than Single Hand Spey (head length is too short)?
You have given another and obviously better rating for your Hydrogen as 6wt test casting different lines.

When there was only AFTM rated DT lines both single and double hand rods were rated for same DT lines. Longer DH rods vere used to cast longer length of DT out of rod so usually they were more powerful.

Now we have AFFTA and there are two different line standards. Single hand line standard is based to old AFTM but there are heavier 13wt, 14wt and 15wt weights.

Two hand line standard is OK when rating lines but it has broblems when rods are tried to rate test casting those lines. All shooting line weights should be heavier to match better to short, mid and long belly lines! I think almost next higher weight should be used? Another difficulty is too big weight difference between short, mid and long belly lines and it is more severe on lighter lines.

The table should have also 5wt, 4wt, 3wt line weights and lengths and perhaps 2wt and 1wt as well. If the same "pattern" is used 5wt shooting head would be 210gr, 4wt = 180gr, 3wt would come 160gr but perhaps 155gr would be better and 2wt = 135gr and 1wt = 120gr?

Esa
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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 04:03 PM
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Simpler example how low end line rating does not fit with rods:

While #11 rated rod would behave quite OK when casting short 11wt <40ft 600gr head and 11wt 80ft 950gr long belly. (A <40ft 12wt 700gr would match even better!)

It is very difficult to manufacture a rod which feel OK casting short 6wt <40ft 250gr head and 6wt 80ft 600gr long belly!!!

Esa
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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 11:08 PM Thread Starter
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Ok everyone, here's the results from my first attempt with the DT5F's. My local river is in flood stages right now, but I was able to find a place to cast from the bank. The lines cast were a SA Frequency, and a Rio Trout LT, with an 8' hand tied leader, 3' tippet, and a #12 spider type fly. I had about 45' of line plus leader and fly past the rod tip, and got good turnover using single spey casts. I was unable to shoot additional line with the SA Frequency, and the amount of line tip on the water during anchoring had to be monitored closely . I was able to shoot a small amount of line, loops were much tighter, and the amount of line tip on the water was less critical with the Trout LT. So my best casts made it 60' from me to the fly. Surprisingly the best casts happened when I was paying the least attention to technique. If I tried to cast with any less than 45' of line outside the rod tip, I was unable to shoot any additional line, but casting was much easier (as I expected). If I tried to cast with more than 45' of line past the rod tip, the line would run out of enough kinetic energy to turn itself over ( the line tip and leader would pile up) whether I tried to shoot line or not (I also expected this, it was just a question of when). The lift was easy with such a thin line and long rod. I used the same sweep to create the d-loop as I do with a scandi head (if the sweep was high and slow, low and fast, or on a constantly rising plane, the cast became more difficult).
My line tip had to be anchored within a rod length and directly to the side of my body and a lot of top hand had to be used on the forward stroke. I also had to lengthen my forward stroke considerably to smooth out the cast and avoid tailing loops. 45° direction changes were a little more difficult, but I did it and feel it would become easier with practice. To me, there was very little feedback from the rod when casting either of these lines. There wasn't the customary load and unload feel of a well-executed underhand (scandi) cast. It felt like I was swinging a bare rod with no line on it. I never felt the rod come alive. I made many acceptable casts, but nothing I was too excited about. After an hour of casting the elbow of my top hand arm was fatigued (probably because I started out trying to make the rod load and unload like it does with a scandi head). My rod ferrules kept loosening (this does not happen when using either of my shooting heads). So for now, the DT5F Trout LT has been the best performing non-shooting head line and I'll continue to work with it hoping further practice will produce better results. I'll try my DT7F again and see if I get better results now that I have a better idea of what technique is necessary to manage a longer line. I'll even try a DT4F (even though I doubt it will make a 60' cast due to inertia/air resistance problems). Thanks for the suggestions and reading this lengthy report. I hope it wasn't boring and this helps some other people interested in light long lines

-Sean
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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 12:46 PM
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Sounds like a good outing with it, I like the way you paid attention to things.
As you continue to fiddle you might find a few things like:

A DT casting cycle needs a more energetic sweep to really energize the loop and load the rod...
The longer the line, the more critical anchoring becomes...
Too much top hand is compensating for a weakness earlier in the cycle, but as the line gets longer more top hand travel is often required to smooth timing out...
Creep with a DT will wreck your cast and your back/shoulders...
DTs don't like to be 'hit' with abrupt power application, they like smooth acceleration to a hard stop...


… things like that. The positive feeling of loading that you get with other styles of line can make it feel like you're 'air casting' at first, so learn to feel your way into the rod. You'll likely find as I did that you need both hands to move forward at the beginning of the forward cast. Remember to bring that sweep way back and keep your hands high. A long, straight straight tip path is important with DT's.

Don't just give the line a few tries, you might have to take it out many times to begin to really feel it

After you get used to casting a DT, casting shooting heads will be easy and effortless. Enjoy the journey. Remember, it's never the line's fault.

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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 01:16 PM
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Just in case anyone hasn't seen the full video: https://www.facebook.com/10002208333...type=2&theater
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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captcaveman View Post
I would like to fish a double taper line. Anybody have a suggestion?
hi,
double taper lines suck.
that being said, they will teach you how to execute a proper spey cast!
any 90' trout DT line will work in the proper weight range. i found that 2-3 line weights greater than the rod rating will work.
line manufacturer really doesn't matter. old school cortland 333 works well enough. you can probably find new old stock if you look around.
gary
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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 01:43 PM Thread Starter
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I will keep at it Speyspaz... often the things that are most frustrating are the things that are most rewarding when finally done right. I did try to energize my d-loop with a faster sweep, but that often ended up with a blown anchor. Do you think I should try a slightly longer leader than 8' to compensate? After watching the video, I also realize that my initial lifts weren't purely vertical. I'm assuming almost simultaneously lifting and sweeping (like I tend to do with a scandi head) would de-energize my d-loop making more top hand power necessary? That Mr. Brown has some chops!

-Sean
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