t8, t11, t14 vs rio versileader?? - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 01:28 AM Thread Starter
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t8, t11, t14 vs rio versileader??

Hi everyone
been looking for an airflo scandi compact 480gr but by the time I see it on this site it is sold so oh well I guess!

In doing so I have notice post about t8, t11, t14 then looking around I find rio versileader in 12lbs and 24lbs
looking at both they look the same but in not knowing they most likely do not act the same so what is the difference
if any??

Bill
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post #2 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 01:26 PM
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Bill, you can also try asking on here for the specific line weights you want. I know you are in the sweet spot of weights. If you get lucky then you will not have to watch the classifieds like a day trader in order to get the ones you are looking for. Just do a "WTB 480 scandi and 510 skagit" in the classifieds.

I realize the explaination below is long, but it would have been exactly what I wanted to know back when I was in your situation, so I hunkered down and tried to lay out some of it I detail. It is long because the product situation w/regard to sink tips is in fact pretty complicated, as you are finding. You will seldom get a real breakdown of this information all in one place on here since it is kind of like the air we all breath.......

I will let you on a minor confusion that is good to know, though not a game changer: courtesy of the Rio department of obfustication, and historical accident, there are at least 2 different ways of labeling sink tips. For tips with names like T11,T8 etc. the "T" stands for tungsten, and on that case the number stands for grains per foot, as in T11 weighs 11 grains per foot. A lot of the time people just learning about this stuff understandably get confused by the alternate (and more traditional) sink tip designation of "type". As in a type 3 sink tip sinks at 3 inches per second, or ips. There are a lot of people working in shops that dont understand the difference either. There is a "T" in both designations but they stand for different things, and the NUMBERS mean something different and so do not line up either. So for example T11 is roughly a type 8 sink tip. This information is on the little cards that often come with the sink tips, but a lot of the time it still confuses people. In practice most people have a complete set labeled one or another, and just shift "gears" until they get a satisfactory result and are fishing at the right depth, so like I said at the top it will not make a huge difference. But when you get to the inevitable situation where you have all kinds of mixed provenance tips in your bag the info helps to compair the apples and oranges. It it were simple you wound not have so many thread on here about "what tips do you use with this and that rod and line".

The other difference between sinktips that is good to know at the beginning, especially when you are buying them online is that the "T-stuff" has a fixed diameter, and as the number indicates the weight per inch goes up as the number goes up. Since the diameter of the tips remain the same this means the DENSITY of the tips goes up the larger the number. The sink rate depends on the density, not the weight, since the force down on a tip is proportional to the difference in the weight of the line and the weight of the water it displaces. It also depends on the friction (the force up on a sinking tip) of the water on the tip, which is complicated but "goes down the thinner the tip" covers %99 of it. There are other ways to make the density of the tips change, and the other obvious (and as it turns out useful) one is to keep the weight per unit lenght constant, and just make the diameter go down. This is the strategy use by the Rio replacement tips. If you buy a set of 9wt 15' rio replacement tips, for example, they will ALL weigh 129gr, but will get thinner and thinner as they go from the intermediate, to the type 3 to the type 6, and so on. So this means that between 4 wt and 11wt with floating, intermediate, and types 3,6 & 8 (color coded) there are actually on the order of 70 different tips when you include the 10' ones.

The advantage of the Rio replacement tips is that when you have a set of them they will all be of the same lenght and weight, and that weight is more finely adjustable to fit your rod. The disadvantage is that they are more expensive. The advantage of the "T-stuff" is that it is cheaper, and you can even buy spools of it and make you own. Also, for the really fast sinking stuff like T14,17 and 20 it is the only option, as far as I know.

My PERSONAL opinion is the rio replacement tips are the Cadillac of sink tips, or perhaps a better analogy would be like shoes that come in all sizes and widths so that you can get a custom fit, where as the T stuff is like flip flops where you have to be satisfied with S,M and L.

This would get way too long to cover everything, but there are also versaleaders, which can be awesome on light rods but are both cheaper, and can sometimes be more fragile. Then there are MOW tips which get their difference in depth by changing the lenght of the sinking part, but are more like the replacement tips in that they keep the total length and weight the same by incorporating a floating portion of varying lenght in front of the sinking part. I just realized as I have never had a complete set of one size of those that may not be exactly true as far as the weight is concerned.

IMHO, when you first start, using the Rio replacement tips it may feel easier to learn to cast since all your tips in a set will all be of the same lenght and weight. You will still have to deal with the fact that denser tips will tend to sink faster WHILE you are casting, but all the other variables will be the same, and so easier to learn because you will not yet have internalized the required adjustments in your casting that will eventually become automatic when you switch to different lenghts and weights of sink tip. MOW tips have that advantage as well, but like flip flops the come in a more limited number of sizes. They ALL, including the T stuff, have their religious advocates.

Sorry for the lenght, but I post this here because this is the information I would myself have loved to have had, all at once and in one place, back when I was in your situation. I hope it helps.

Last edited by Botsari; 12-13-2016 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Spelling
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post #3 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 02:14 PM
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Post above should be a sticky. Would have been a helpful resource for when I first got into the whole Spey thing... 👍
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post #4 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 02:42 PM
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I realize that the number one thing people are interested in (as was I) when first starting out is "How can I get a complete rod/line/sink tip combo that is guaranteed to work as well together as possible so that I will know for sure that all the crappy casts I make in the beginning are my OWN fault!" Another highly recomended method that simply cuts through the gordion knot of all this stuff is to contact Steve Godshall and have him build you a line for your rod. He has a huge database of rods and can build custom lines of all different styles, and a few styles that aren't available elsewhere, for any of those that will perfectly fit your rod AND will not cost you a lot more. He will definitely have Bill's sage one 7136 in the database I would guess. The lines he builds will also have specific recomendations on the tips to use, and Steve might actually be able to provide some of those tips if he has them in stock. Now a lot of people who are very experienced love his lines, but it occurs to me that getting one of these as your FIRST line (and then may years later you can get one as your "last" line) would be an awesome way to get started with confidence. There is a good deal of wiggle room for personal taste, but if you don't trust your local shop to even hit this target then calling Steve will be golden. A great guy to have as a final arbiter on all such issues.

Steve Godshall, 541-840-2594, [email protected]
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post #5 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 06:20 PM
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Botsari, thanks so much for this very informative post on tips. Very helpful to me. I second the moderators should sticky this.

cheers!
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post #6 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 11:35 PM Thread Starter
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Botsari again thanks for your help!!
spent some time last night cruising the web looking for this info but I have to agree with Rustybee this should be a sticky here on this site!!
like you said there is so much info and all the different products out there now that for someone just starting out spey fishing is at times somewhat overwhelming!!
polyleaders and versileaders from what I have read are the same thing just different names! The tungsten tips?? are a different world from what I have read and from what Botsari has said here!
what it is for me to boil it down to a point is not wasting money on something that will not work for me or my rod??
like today after finally putting on a perfection loop on the end of my versileader instead of a knot makes them last longer! just loop on a new tippet section!!
on the bright side I got to fish my new sage today, woooo what a difference then my echo rod

Bill
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post #7 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-14-2016, 05:08 PM
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Like said, a lot of info is printed on the back of the package the tips come in. You know that stuff you throw away? I know people who do exactly that (you know who you are Fred ) & once the tip is looped to the fly line, all info regarding same is lost, forever. Organization can save all that frustration. Invest in a tip wallet & save the ID cards that come with the tips, or make your own.

Now if you really want the straight scoop on all of this so you don't have to log onto SpeyPages & do a search for it every time you want to know, it's all available in a handy little book by Al Buhr called How to Design Fly Lines.

FWIW: Some people memorize sink rates of different stuff down to decimals. For me slow, fast, & faster is about all my pea brain can remember. Beyond that it's all about monster flies & what it takes to work with them!
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post #8 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-14-2016, 08:23 PM
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Great info, and I learned a bunch reading this thread. I am a newbie as well, just ordered a custom meiser, and had bob and Steve set it up completely, with shooting heads skagit , scandi, tips etc etc etc. now I'm beginning to understand the leaders in my setup. The rod casts beautifully for a few hours ever trying this spey thing. 100 footers consistently!
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post #9 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-15-2016, 01:36 AM Thread Starter
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Ya I did that at first then could not remember what tip was what, Then some where on this site I think I read something about a tippet hold so I dug into the web! POINT!! for a newbie this is all new and UNKNOWING!!! for a lot of you here it's aah daa you ******* don't ya know!!
Botsari said
"How can I get a complete rod/line/sink tip combo that is guaranteed to work as well together as possible so that I will know for sure that all the crappy casts I make in the beginning are my OWN fault!"
Money!!!!! Money is the key factor in any and all sports!! unless you are rich then you don't give a crud ( u know what work I was going to say )
So people or should fellow brother fisherman come here to find out info or to ask a question!! and the only dumb question is the one never asked!!
I got Rio`s Modern Spey Casting cd set to learn what to do and not too in spey casting
so I ask my questions as do others here so I or we don't waist money on something we don't need or cant use! I got a lot of fishing gear in the past
that looked good and oh boy look at that I just have to have it!! now I am old and shop wisely and I think most all of you are the same!!
in saying all that I will say this Again
Sorry for all My Questions!!!

Bill

Last edited by GR8LAKES FLYER; 12-15-2016 at 07:15 AM. Reason: Removed bad language
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post #10 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-15-2016, 01:42 AM Thread Starter
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ok at it again

QUESTION!

Airflo Compact Skagit Intermediate Spey Line CL
and
Airflo Compact Skagit Shooting Head CL

from looking at tippets my guess is
Airflo Compact Skagit Intermediate Spey Line CL is a sinking line???
and
Airflo Compact Skagit Shooting Head CL is a floating line ??

so what is the CL for???

Bill
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post #11 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-15-2016, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin View Post

so what is the CL for???

Bill

Comes Looped, Casts Long, Casters Like... most likely the first but my favorite Catch Lax

Esa
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post #12 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-15-2016, 09:50 AM
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Compact Line.
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post #13 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-15-2016, 11:31 AM
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I see airflo also has a department of obfustication.
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post #14 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-15-2016, 03:10 PM
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No need to apologize for asking questions. We've all been there. It's just that some of them. (usually lines & tips) keep coming up every time someone gets a new rod. It would be helpful if there were some hard, fast, rules, an uncomplicated method for figuring all that stuff out. There is, but posting it online would violate copy write laws so I'm not gonna do that. Plus I know & respect Al Buhr, which is an even more valid reason why I'm not gonna do it. $20 for that little book is not going to break the bank, and it will probably pay for itself in keeping someone from wasting a lot of money buying the wrong lines or tips! The long & short of it is, $hit flows down hill & you can't push on a rope.

Putting a line system together is designing a fly line, piece by piece, out of a catalog. Buy the book, read it all the way through, as many times as it takes for the light bulb to come on.

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post #15 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-15-2016, 03:57 PM
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I guess I could add that if you want to get balanced Rio replacement tips (for a skagit head) a workable formula is use 9wt 15' tips on a 7wt Spey lenght rod, and 8wt 10' tips on a 7wt switch rod. For heavier/lighter rated rods go heavier/lighter by the same amounts. So by way of example, use 11wt 15' tips on a 9wt spey, and 7wt 10' tips on a 6wt switch. If you use the listed weights/lenghts for these and compare them to any other types of tips this will also get you in the right ballpark for the rest of them. This is for Skagit heads more or less matched for the rod. Scandi matching depends on more details, especially whether they are designed to use heavier tips and so will be 'cut' for a fatter end that connectes to the tip. But of course they will tend to be lighter than the ones for your skagit head. This rule WILL get you into tips that will work well, but as always YMMV (slightly in wt and/or lenght) according to personal taste. AND, you will eventually learn to cast almost any tip on any skagit head well enough to make it work for fishing. With respect to the actual fishability of scandi heads they will tend to be a lot more sensitive to the tip weight, with less room for error.

I will leave it to others to post any back-of-the-envelope rules they may have for the other types of tips, but like I said above, if you look up the specs of the Rio tips according to the rules above for a given rod/skagit head and try to find other tips that are reasonably close it should get you in the ballpark for any other kinds/brands of tips.

The Buhr booklet is awesome, as is his casting book. Must haves at a certain point. Neither are that easy to find though, and both may be kind of inscrutable to absolute beginners, who might need a first balanced setup and some practice to actually get motivated enough to dive in that deeply.

Last edited by Botsari; 12-15-2016 at 05:40 PM. Reason: Spelling
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