The issue of the mass of the shooting line - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 07:21 PM Thread Starter
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The issue of the mass of the shooting line

I was re-reading a blog post here:

John Larison's Quiver the Burkheimer 9145-4 ? CF Burkheimer

And was thinking about John Larison's comment on running lines in there where he says the NC WA lines like the added mass of a running line like a ridge, but he uses miracle braid for a skagit head. In the last half year or so I have been experimenting with mono shooting lines for these heads, and have found they definitely do turn over differently. After adjusting the overhang and the stroke a bit I felt I more or less got things to work.

I was wondering what are people's thoughts on this. What makes a line "want" more heft in a shooting line to properly turn over? It it a longer thinner taper at the front? Is it just mass/inertia of the line, or is it really the friction in the guides? I was thinking of trying 50# opst shooting line with a wa, on the same rod tomorrow. Larison's remarks there seem very nuanced as I don't remember this subject discussed here much, and I was wondering if people have any philosophy along these lines as to which shooting lines work best as far as casting various types of heads.
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 07:39 PM
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On my shorter switch rod, I have found that even a 30# mono running line as opposed to a 40# mono running line is a big difference in drag through the guides. I used to tend to over-line for that very reason. I think it's simple in my small Skagit mind, but less diameter on the water and through the guides, equals more power transferred to the head. The cast might not be as "pretty" to a spectator looking at colorful loops, but my head and line lands straight and turns my flies over with great timing before anything lands. Using thicker diameter running lines made by the major line manufacturers just doesn't work for me at all after going to monofilament. Just my 2 cents, eager to hear other replies.
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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
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Yes of course, purely from a friction standpoint what you said above is probably the view of most people. Usually the issue is discussed in terms of a trade off between low friction and the ease of gripping the line and so on. The turnover issues don't get discussed.

To be clear, Larison apparently agrees with you on skagit heads. Miracle braid - what he uses for skagit heads - has very little friction. Personally I find it annoyingly noisy going through the guides, and have wondered in the past if it scared fish while I stripped in. But perhaps I am an oversensitive soul. :-)
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 07:54 PM
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I recently made the switch over to gripshooters for all my shooting head setups but I think there is alot of credence to this theory, because if you leave too much shooting line available with such little resistance, the head just keeps flying without turning over as well. The smooth resistance of a coated running line against the guides actually slows the lower part of the loop's progression, thereby encouraging the top part to unfurl smoothly.

I only get a nice crisp turnover with mono by balancing the amount of available free shooting line to the reel with my intended casting distance, and the amount of power on the casting stroke. Dial-back the stroke power if the turnover is bouncing back too much, but if the reel-slap happens with the right amount of stripped mono right before the full cast distance is reached, the gentle reel-slap gives you that final flick of turnover.. The distance benefits of the mono is still realized, but there is a gentle give-and-take balance to maintain a smooth turnover and presentation.

Longer full lines or coated running lines are more graceful and require a little less pre-calculation (and stripping!), but allow you to go for distance with extra power from an aggressive d-loop and casting stroke instead.

I say six of one, half a dozen of the other. I just like the lightness and "reel-estate" I gain from the mono lines, and quite frankly the learning experience between coated and mono has been interesting and fun. And for those casting junk that just needs to get way out there and not be pretty, or intend to sink alot before the actual presentation, then I'd choose an ugly mono bomb cast anyways.

my 3 cents
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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 07:57 PM
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John is a close friend and we spoke about this before he wrote that piece. If he wrote mass in the article, I can assure you 100% that he meant greater resistance (friction) from the heavier running line. But that's moot now. Mono is in. Come tight to the reel and your casts will turn over every time.

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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 08:30 PM Thread Starter
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Love the expression "ugly mono bomb". :-)
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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 09:24 PM
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Here is an older thread. http://www.speypages.com/speyclave/5...ence-cast.html. Curious what people think now.
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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSPey View Post
John is a close friend and we spoke about this before he wrote that piece. If he wrote mass in the article, I can assure you 100% that he meant greater resistance (friction) from the heavier running line. But that's moot now. Mono is in. Come tight to the reel and your casts will turn over every time.
Friction is one feature and mass another when line head needs to accelerate more and more of the shooting/running line mass and also lift the mass up against the gravity to the rod tip level. Gravity also effects shooting line mass during the whole cast causing energy loss.

We are able to execute a shooted line loop cast having only rod length of thin mono attached to the shooting head which is then released but the timing is very critical because it is only the delay which we make that starts the line loop run. Of course this test should be done over ground and easier when an overhead cast is done.

Esa
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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 10:51 AM
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I prefer coated shooting lines over mono. I've tried mono several times over the years because I figure if so many people use it, I might like it too. That hasn't happened. I find my casts turn over better and lay out straighter with fly line style shooting lines and I always attributed this to increased friction. I know I sacrifice distance, but I didn't start casting a two hander for more distance, it's about line control and ease of casting.
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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 11:05 AM
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Esa, yes, mass and friction are both features, always ... but the two running lines mentioned in that article (Airflo 30 lb and Miracle Braid) actually weigh about the same. They differ greatly in friction.

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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botsari View Post
I was wondering what are people's thoughts on this.
and I was wondering if people have any philosophy along these lines as to which shooting lines work best as far as casting various types of heads.
I have casted many combos of running line and shooting heads.
If your fly is not turning over, it is not the running lines fault.
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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 12:04 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by voodoofly View Post
I have casted many combos of running line and shooting heads.
If your fly is not turning over, it is not the running lines fault.
Can't speak for everyone of course, but from my point of view the question was NOT about IF the fly turned over but the relative effects of different running lines, specifically on their relative friction going out, on the cast.
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
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Can't speak for everyone of course, but from my point of view the question was NOT about IF the fly turned over but the relative effects of different running lines, specifically on their relative friction going out, on the cast.
Oh, OK.
I don't worry about friction in the guides.
mono cast farther than braid.
braid is easier to handle.
mono stretches more than braid.
mono tangles more than braid.
My personal favorite for fishing is the Rio Connect Core.
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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by voodoofly View Post
Oh, OK.
I don't worry about friction in the guides.
mono cast farther than braid.
braid is easier to handle.
mono stretches more than braid.
mono tangles more than braid.
My personal favorite for fishing is the Rio Connect Core.
And I suppose the reason John felt it was more important to have a high friction running line for the Wa45 was simply a matter of the longer line, hence more loop to trurn over? This would have been my original conclusion except for the very small difference in the examples he was discussing. A skagit head plus 12.5' tip isn't a ton shorter than a wa45. Or does the taper itself make a difference. My knee jerk reaction would be that a nice smoothly tapered line like the wa would tend to turn over EASIER, and so require less friction than the skagit head.

Over the years I have heard a lot of totally contradictory opinions from very experienced people, so it is not always easy to seperate personal customs/tendencies from fundamental "laws". The funniest one in the
last year for me was having the luck to being guided two consecutive days by two guides with a total of about 70 years of guiding on a particular river, and see how violently they disagreed on the "all-importance" of one particular fine point of tying on the fly.
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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 12:53 PM
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The only thing I can contribute is when I took my daughter Spey fishing for the first time (she is 7) and she heard the running line go through the guides she remarked:

"That's a cool sound isn't it!"




How much distance are you really losing and how much does that really influence catching fish?


Great thread as usual
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