Ad Revenues etc on the Spey Clave, or "How to go Broke in Hurry on the Internet." - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-09-2002, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
chrome-magnon man
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Unhappy Ad Revenues etc on the Spey Clave, or "How to go Broke in Hurry on the Internet."

Hi Fred and everyone!

First off, thanks Fred for the positive press in the “Please support the Spey Pages/Spey Clave” thread and your on-going support of the site—much appreciated! In looking over your post on the old board this morning though I thought it was a good time to talk a little about the Spey Pages and Spey Clave.

Judging from some of the questions and comments I’ve received about the site moves, I think it’s important to clear up a few misconceptions that seem to be floating around out there. While the running of web sites might seem like a glamorous and lucrative undertaking, the realities are much different. Here’s the straight goods:

1. Site Hosting: both the msn and Yahoo/geocities sites were set up under the programs those companies have in place to provide free hosting for anyone interested in starting their own web site. In exchange for free hosting, msn and Yahoo populate web site banner space with ads of their choosing, and collect all the revenue. Webmasters receive none of the ad revenue nor have any control over what ads appear on their sites. In fact on Yahoo they were shutting the Spey Pages down regularly in an effort to get me to pay them for site hosting. I thought this would be okay if I got some of their ad revenue, but of course they wouldn’t have anything to do with that idea. Let me be very clear—I have never received a penny from msn or Yahoo/geocities while Spey Pages and ISC were on their servers.
2. Site Move: I moved the sites over to join the World Wide Flyfishing Forum because I believe that this approach offers my audience the best and most reliable access to the Spey Pages and the Spey Clave. I share the philosophy of Juro, Sean and others involved in the Forum—namely “passion before profit”—we exist because we love fly fishing and want to provide people with a great place to be entertained, gather information, exchange ideas and have a sense of community. This is a great place to be, and I’m proud to be associated with the Forum and the wonderful people that work and play here.
3. Ad revenues? Well, let’s talk about revenues in general: in the past 2 years of running these sites I have had roughly 60 people subscribe to my newsletter. That’s site based income of @ $1200 US. In those 2 years I have purchased and upgraded software and hardware, dealt with system melt downs and virus attacks, paid to have tackle transported around North America so I could provide objective and useful reviews for my readers, plus spent thousands of hours researching, writing, filming, editing and publishing all the material you see on Spey Pages, as well as regularly monitoring and participating in the discussion boards. When I convert all that into numbers and crunch ‘em I’ve invested thousands of my own after tax dollars and thousand of my own “after tax” hours (that’s late evenings and weekends after working a full week at a “real” job, raising a family and trying to be a good life partner) into these sites. So, in the end these Spey Pages sites are supported by 60 of the over 300 active members on the original ISC site (not to mention hundreds more visitors), my own personal finances and time and energy resources, and the great behind the scenes help of people like Juro, Sean, Brian, Kush and others —all of whom donate their time to this site and the Forum itself in one way or another.
4. Okay, Ad Revenues: what ad revenues? I don’t see much advertising on either Spey Pages or the Spey Clave, and I see a limited amount on the Forum itself. This is a little disconcerting at times because what I do see is a number of members who are involved in the tackle industry in a variety of ways—pro staffers, product designers, fly shop owners and staff, casting instructors, etc etc--who use the site essentially as a form of free advertising for themselves and the companies they represent. In some cases the stature and influence they have gained is in no small way the direct result of the existence and availability of ISC to gather together an audience of Spey casters; without this Forum these people would be virtually unknown outside a circle of friends and casters in their immediate area. On other web sites like VFS and the Steelhead Site the webmasters are vigilant about such stuff, and it disappears as quickly as it arrives. This is interesting because on those same sites you will see banner advertising from the various manufacturers, fly shops etc, the same ones who essentially get free advertising here. We have a different approach because we believe in the free exchange of information and want to provide our audience with a place where they can get information they can’t find anywhere else on the web. We do offer advertising opportunities at very competitive rates but few take advantage of it. We are hoping this will change as people see the value of supporting us—we heavily support the fly tackle industry by providing a very popular series of forums where their products and services are highlighted and discussed; it just makes good business sense for those who we support to support us in return.

I don’t want to come across here as cranky or lacking in gratitude. I get a lot of enjoyment out of what I do with the sites, and greatly appreciate the support that many of you offer—thank you thank you thank you! But I am not going to get rich or even make ends meet running a Spey Casting web site, and if the motivation was income I’d have stopped a few months after I started. I get the most enjoyment and benefit out of the many great friendships that have developed for me as I have corresponded with and met many of you over the past two years, and I look forward to keeping the sites alive for a long time. It would be great to have more support. If you value what you see here and in the Forum, subscribe to the newsletter, become a contributing member, buy some advertising or talk to someone who can. And above all support those advertisers who do step in to help us keep the Spey Pages, Spey Clave and the World Wide Flyfishing Forum delivering the kind of open exchange of ideas that define us and make us unique.

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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-09-2002, 07:27 PM
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spey clave

there is now doubt that what you do is a labor of love for the sport.i thought about subscribing to your letter but i kind of wanted to see a sample first.there are probably others like me as well.thanks for your efforts.
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-09-2002, 07:40 PM Thread Starter
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Have a look at the newsletter link on'll find 2 samples there, an article on the D loop and one on the Snake Roll.

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-09-2002, 08:12 PM
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I've said this in a few different posts, but I truly love these pages. I'd have to ay, maybe you need to crack down and go to he "o unpaid advertising" venue. I know quite a few boards that attack an/or delte any blatant posts that are fre advertising. Iit's a good idea, and I bet your gain in advertisers would be immediate. This is a popular board, and rowing day by day. I tel all my friends about iit, I love the site, an it's been one of my primary homes (and I'm more of aconventional fisherman VS fly).

Ii'm going to talk to a buddy of mine. He is a rep for a new up andcoming hook company. They are developing fly hooks now. I'm sslated to get on their prostaff one of thse days. Mmaybe I can hok Juro up with th owner once his fy hoks are in production and maybe they ca work out seling a banner.

Yyeah Dana, I've heard horror stories abouut Yyaho and MSN. Ben loking at starting up my ow webpage. But I have a few friends ho own their own companies that are gonna help me with inexpensive companies that store websites.
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-09-2002, 09:04 PM
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For those of you who have been thinking about joining the newsletter, JUMP IN!!! I spent a lot more buying books from Falkus and Maxwell, without learning so much. A lot of the information in the newsletter and board are not readily available in books or on video.

Support both and join.

Remember you can spend more taking the family out to McDonalds.

Speyclave Contributor

Practice is about increasing your repertoire of ways to recover from your mistakes. Joann C. Gutin
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-10-2002, 05:22 PM
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Thank you, Dana, for your efforts. You are quickly becoming The Authority on things spey. You are a genuinely good man and I will have no problem with supporting your efforts. My subscription to your newsletter will be forthcoming.

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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-12-2002, 12:11 AM
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Dana, that was 'real life,' and a reality test for any one

who wants to duplicate what you have accomplished. To be blunt; 'ya, gotta have balls' to try what you've done. For this the "60/300" will continue to be most greatfull. I'm not a happy camper to hear the '60' number; I live in a "spey casting vacume" down here in So. Oregon. "They" tell me there are lots of spey rod users in our area; horse pucky, Period. 99.9995 of the folk down here have either never seen a spey rod (pictures in a mag. don't count) or have never held one in their hand.

I've used 'them' for years. but I've learned more from your 'spey letters' than I've ever learned from real time instructions.... which have been zip other than the 2001 Spey Clave. And I can not adequatly express my personal level of appreciation for what you've accomplished.

I'm in the process of setting up a 'not-for-profit' spey class down here in the Medford area for locals, et. al. All funds received (except for very hard costs for instructors airline tickets/room rent) will be donated to fly fishing organizations/school districts which have active youth programs. Will be interesting to see how this goes.

Class dates (Instructors are Dr. Way Lin aka Spey Bubba and Steve C. aka Last/Long Cast Steve) are March 30-31st on the Rogue. Word of caution: during class no hooks will be allowed because of far too many fish moving in front of the class water.

And I'm not exagerating that statement. The dates cover the the last of the prime winer run steelhead season and we're about a month into the Spring King Salmon run.

Yes, during lunch/after class you can 're-load' with a hook, but a hookup would be too disruptive for the class. Class will be limited to 10-12 Max! students and include a great lunches on Sat and Sunday on the river plus dinner on Saturday evening. Way/Steve will be filming the students for 'post' river critique. And no, none of us will 'snigger,' .... our film comes up next.

For more "details" contact me at [email protected] or [email protected]

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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-12-2002, 04:39 AM
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I for one, was one of thoes that used the international spey board, but didnt subscribe, But that will soon change. I am kinda new here and now know enough to know that the"spey pages" are a great resorce for the dime.......Nate
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-12-2002, 03:46 PM
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Hey Fred

Had so much fun on my road trip thru your neck of the woods during the holidays any excuse to come back is welcome. As I can always use help with my casting and the peoceeds go to a good cause, if you have room, count me in!

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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-12-2002, 05:07 PM
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Joe, shoot me your name, address, phone and email

address so I get you on the 'distribution list' asap. This will be a top end venture for all. Any youth fishing programs in your area that you'd like to see get some of the proceeds?

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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-14-2002, 03:29 AM Thread Starter
chrome-magnon man
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thought it might be a good time... bring this one back to the top again. It's important for everyone to remember that we don't have the luxury of multi-million dollar companies, large publishing operations or other big sources of funding behind us here. The Forum is essentially Juro and Sean and a bit of me keeping everything up and running as smoothly as it all does. Our sponsors are wonderful--please support them! They support you by helping us keep the lights on.

We have but one mission: to provide you with a great place to hang out and talk fly fishing. In order to do that, we need your continued support. Many individuals and companies have benefitted from the exposure they receive here, although they do not support us through advertising. If you value these sites and what we provide here, help us by encouraging those that you know to advertise with us. Running a major web site on a shoestring gives new meaning to the phrase "making ends meet," and it would be great if we didn't have to count our pennies every month through 2003.

Okay, back to the fishing...!

PS: Fred, here's a thought: maybe in 2003 you might consider organizing a clinic that has part of the proceeds targeted at supporting the Forum. Fundraising ideas like this are all part of helping us provide a place for people to organize and promote events like the Spey Clave and Spey Day get-togethers and other events like your charity casting clinics.

Last edited by Dana; 11-14-2002 at 03:43 AM.
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-14-2002, 08:25 AM
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Hi Dana! On your point of the Charity Clinic funds being

used for the Board, I've long since made that suggestion to Juro. See more on your other clinic suggestion post.


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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-14-2002, 08:43 AM
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And Fred, thank you very much for all of those suggestions, seems like we are all on the same page. I will flush out a couple of tasks I am on right now and we'll talk turkey about how to proceed. Most importantly THANKS!
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-14-2002, 12:04 PM
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Would it be possible to set up a subsciber only archive with Dana's articles and extenced video clips that demonstrate the various tecniques. The current video clips are way too brief. I think this could be turned into a real revenue rasing proposition. I can't see many readers refusing to subscribe for a reasonable rate.

For when sleeping I dream of big fish and strong fights.

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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-14-2002, 09:23 PM
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BeBop, that is a really cool idea, albeit probably a lot of work, but still, a good idea.

Imagine we had the Dana Sturns "enhanced subscription" newsletter by where you had your newsletter on HTML for members that pay (who get their own password). In it we not only had Dana's newsletter, but mpegs/avi's/asf files of people doing the cast and what to look for in each videos casts.

For instance, the snakeroll newsletter could demonstrate with an mpeg what is being talked about. "Here is the windup in slow motion > video clip" and then talk about what the caster is doing exactly explaining every little detail and how in contributes overall to the cast being excellent.

Ok, it's probably a long shot. But? We're talking keeping this forum going. What's a little elbow grease and movie uploading cost versus a spey casting clave (or even both?, why not?)

Maybe it's easier said than done?

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