Over Hang - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-11-2020, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
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Over Hang

Hello Everyone

I'll thank you in advance.. Maybe this should be under basics, I don't know... Yesterday at the river I went from a really light fly to a much heavier fly. My setup is a G Loomis short spey 51111 with a 390 Skagit Scout and a 12ft OPST sink tip that's equivalent to T8..

Typically when I'm throwing something nice and light I keep about 2ft of over hang (I find this really helps me tighten up my loops) at some point I put on a heavier dumbell eyed fly. So here in lies the question. How do you guys compensate for this? Reduce the over hang, put more energy into the D Sweep, start the D Sweep a bit sooner not to let it soak?

On another note, Yesterday I really had that "AHA" moment in my casting. Slowed my D Sweep way down kept my tip in an ascending motion, shortened up my forward stroke, everything felt perfect. I'm a couple years into this, but the end of yesterday I realized I wasn't even fishing anymore, I was just casting with a giant smile on my face... These Amazing Casting days are really going to take a toll on my fishing production 😂

Thanks
Jer
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-30-2020, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Jersquared View Post
Hello Everyone

I'll thank you in advance.. Maybe this should be under basics, I don't know... Yesterday at the river I went from a really light fly to a much heavier fly. My setup is a G Loomis short spey 51111 with a 390 Skagit Scout and a 12ft OPST sink tip that's equivalent to T8..

Typically when I'm throwing something nice and light I keep about 2ft of over hang (I find this really helps me tighten up my loops) at some point I put on a heavier dumbell eyed fly. So here in lies the question. How do you guys compensate for this? Reduce the over hang, put more energy into the D Sweep, start the D Sweep a bit sooner not to let it soak?

On another note, Yesterday I really had that "AHA" moment in my casting. Slowed my D Sweep way down kept my tip in an ascending motion, shortened up my forward stroke, everything felt perfect. I'm a couple years into this, but the end of yesterday I realized I wasn't even fishing anymore, I was just casting with a giant smile on my face... These Amazing Casting days are really going to take a toll on my fishing production 😂

Thanks
Jer
I'm a bit surprised by the lack of response to your question.

My opinion is that heavier flies do require less soak time but I'd be a little careful about assuming that dumbells are necessarily heavier than coneheads. Lacking any answers from those who might know, try experimenting will overhang and D loop swing acceleration (obviously one at a time). Also, it's easy to blow the anchor with a Scout so be careful not to increase the tip elevation with the increase acceleration. The 12' tip should help a bit .
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-30-2020, 02:30 PM
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Heavier fly creates more anchor, so compensate with your sweep to slightly lessen the anchor created by your tip- meaning somewhat less tip in the water on your forward stroke.

That said, t8 is going to limit what you can carrying terms of fly weight to a degree. That head will probably toss 8 or 10 ft of t11 if you have good tension through out.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-30-2020, 04:47 PM
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Depth of wading

In general I find that overhang is affected by the depth of my wading, and not the weight of the fly. As I wade deeper, I use less overhang.

Cheers,
Chris
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-30-2020, 06:29 PM
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The main effect of changing the overhang is that it changes the geometry of the initial loop formation - the longer the overhang the tighter the loop. As a thought-experiment imagine a very long overhang - in such a case at the end of the power stroke (assuming for the thought experiment purposes that energy was actually transferred to the line) the fly line basically keeps going in a straight line until after the release of the shooting line dragging the shooting line behind it rather than turning over. This would then be in effect a “zero” inch loop but with no turnover! Interpolate between zero and infinity overhang and you get the idea. The tighter loop produced in this way can help your casting a lot, but as implied by the original question the timing becomes more and more critical as the overhang gets longer. So YES, when casting a dead chicken or anything you feel like is putting more pressure on you to get good energy transfers a lot of people will both use a little less overhang and do the usual, which is to “round” their stop a bit to intentionally get a wider loop, and a more stable and reliable energy transfer to compensate for the heavier load. In that case “style-be-dammed, we need to get this puppy airborne”. Same goes when the “load” is due to a extra-large or extra-sticky amount of sunk line at the moment of the power stroke.

BTW a very extreme rounding to the extent of virtual complete elimination of the stop altogether is a great tool (even though you may look like a “tool” to people watching and unaware of what you are doing) for casting safely under overhanging branches on the opposite bank. Learning that trick can be a real lifesaver if you face that sort of thing a lot, and you would in addition of course use zero overhang in those case.

You can also adjust the overhang, as mentioned, simply to change/recalibrate amount of line you are casting relative the water when you change your wading depth. But IMHO once you get used to adjusting on the fly (no pun intended) to the difference between skagit length, scandi length, and short belly length lines you will most likely never even think about that part. You just watch the loop and adjust your cast accordingly unless things are so extreme as to be a “trick cast”, like choking up to flick the cast under overhangs on your side of the river. Personally while I know I’m changing my cast mechanics to compensate for the wading depth I feel like it is almost subconscious at this point.
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Last edited by Botsari; 04-30-2020 at 07:01 PM.
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-02-2020, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Jersquared View Post
Hello Everyone

I'll thank you in advance.. Maybe this should be under basics, I don't know... Yesterday at the river I went from a really light fly to a much heavier fly. My setup is a G Loomis short spey 51111 with a 390 Skagit Scout and a 12ft OPST sink tip that's equivalent to T8..

Typically when I'm throwing something nice and light I keep about 2ft of over hang (I find this really helps me tighten up my loops) at some point I put on a heavier dumbell eyed fly. So here in lies the question. How do you guys compensate for this? Reduce the over hang, put more energy into the D Sweep, start the D Sweep a bit sooner not to let it soak?

On another note, Yesterday I really had that "AHA" moment in my casting. Slowed my D Sweep way down kept my tip in an ascending motion, shortened up my forward stroke, everything felt perfect. I'm a couple years into this, but the end of yesterday I realized I wasn't even fishing anymore, I was just casting with a giant smile on my face... These Amazing Casting days are really going to take a toll on my fishing production 😂

Thanks
Jer

It's all in the timing, and on timing the cast Ed Ward posted here once that he looks for the fly to "pirouette around " before the forward/ the delivery cast - with skagit heads of course. But that is true about fly casting in general.

Various lengths of overhang ( or holding-points depending on how you look at it) place the belly at various distances from the tiptop ( closer or further ) thus changing the dynamics of a line or line system but overhang has little to do with weight of the fly.

Last edited by fish0n4evr; 05-02-2020 at 07:28 PM. Reason: correction
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-02-2020, 07:45 PM
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The main effect of changing the overhang is that it changes the geometry of the initial loop formation - the longer the overhang the tighter the loop. As a thought-experiment imagine a very long overhang - in such a case at the end of the power stroke (assuming for the thought experiment purposes that energy was actually transferred to the line) the fly line basically keeps going in a straight line until after the release of the shooting line dragging the shooting line behind it rather than turning over. This would then be in effect a “zero” inch loop but with no turnover! Interpolate between zero and infinity overhang and you get the idea. The tighter loop produced in this way can help your casting a lot, but as implied by the original question the timing becomes more and more critical as the overhang gets longer. So YES, when casting a dead chicken or anything you feel like is putting more pressure on you to get good energy transfers a lot of people will both use a little less overhang and do the usual, which is to “round” their stop a bit to intentionally get a wider loop, and a more stable and reliable energy transfer to compensate for the heavier load. In that case “style-be-dammed, we need to get this puppy airborne”. Same goes when the “load” is due to a extra-large or extra-sticky amount of sunk line at the moment of the power stroke.

BTW a very extreme rounding to the extent of virtual complete elimination of the stop altogether is a great tool (even though you may look like a “tool” to people watching and unaware of what you are doing) for casting safely under overhanging branches on the opposite bank. Learning that trick can be a real lifesaver if you face that sort of thing a lot, and you would in addition of course use zero overhang in those case.

You can also adjust the overhang, as mentioned, simply to change/recalibrate amount of line you are casting relative the water when you change your wading depth. But IMHO once you get used to adjusting on the fly (no pun intended) to the difference between skagit length, scandi length, and short belly length lines you will most likely never even think about that part. You just watch the loop and adjust your cast accordingly unless things are so extreme as to be a “trick cast”, like choking up to flick the cast under overhangs on your side of the river. Personally while I know I’m changing my cast mechanics to compensate for the wading depth I feel like it is almost subconscious at this point.

The effect of overhang as I see it is that it takes more effort to cast with longer lengths.
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-02-2020, 09:59 PM
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The effect of overhang as I see it is that it takes more effort to cast with longer lengths.
Yes it does, but there is a sweet spot at a certain amount of overhang that depends on the load, line, rod, and skill of the caster where the required extra precision/effort is balanced by overall better results. The results CAN sometimes go from extra-sweet/optimal to FUBAR pretty quickly as you let more out.

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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 12:25 PM
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It's the same old discussion on holding points; Where should a line be held? Back taper within, at or beyond tip-top??? Does color change coincide with back taper and does it imply an optimal holding point? It matters little where one holds a line in fly casting.

Just from what I see in my own casting holding a line at longer lengths beyond the tip top ( "over hang") causes the rod tip to deflect and rebound to a greater degree. The extra effort required to keep the line tensioned across that length is expressed in the amount of deflection. One can see how rod deflection/rebound effect on loop formation in slow motion video. Better to see for one's self in comparison casting increased lengths of overhang and deflection with more effort versus less...
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 01:50 PM
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It's the same old discussion on holding points; Where should a line be held? Back taper within, at or beyond tip-top??? Does color change coincide with back taper and does it imply an optimal holding point? It matters little where one holds a line in fly casting.

Just from what I see in my own casting holding a line at longer lengths beyond the tip top ( "over hang") causes the rod tip to deflect and rebound to a greater degree. The extra effort required to keep the line tensioned across that length is expressed in the amount of deflection. One can see how rod deflection/rebound effect on loop formation in slow motion video. Better to see for one's self in comparison casting increased lengths of overhang and deflection with more effort versus less...
Yes, that’s Newton’s first law in action - the energy that doesn’t go into making the fat loop gets “wasted” moving the tip. The upside is the line can get put into a more favorable and efficient configuration - tighter loop - to use the remaining energy. So the combination of the rising and falling curves create a peaked curve vs overhang length. It’s a bit of a crutch and it is preferable if a line “does this for you”, and of course you can usually adjust your stroke to achieve similar results, but sometimes that can be harder to accomplish (at first) than simply adjusting the overhang.

“Gravity is a harsh mistress!”, The Tick

Last edited by Botsari; 05-05-2020 at 02:29 PM.
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 03:50 PM
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Yes, that’s Newton’s first law in action - the energy that doesn’t go into making the fat loop gets “wasted” moving the tip. The upside is the line can get put into a more favorable and efficient configuration - tighter loop - to use the remaining energy. So the combination of the rising and falling curves create a peaked curve vs overhang length. It’s a bit of a crutch and it is preferable if a line “does this for you”, and of course you can usually adjust your stroke to achieve similar results, but sometimes that can be harder to accomplish (at first) than simply adjusting the overhang.


Watching/feeling how a rod deflecting and rebounding is giving shape to the loop - timing is only about releasing shooting line.

Overhang I agree - Kind of a' crutch. Like a WF compared to a DT. I keep bringing up the DT not because of any perceived notions about them - but because there's no overhang when casting DTs and yet it is possible to shape tight- loops and with less effort. It trains you to keep more line in the air (smallest stick & biggest d-loop possible) and to keep the train track as narrow as possible - 180˚-out to target.
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