Fish and Habit restoration vs. Hatchery Fish - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
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Fish and Habit restoration vs. Hatchery Fish

Hatchery Proponents :
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 01:18 PM
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Funny, but perhaps there need to be two different versions. One for the gear and bait guys (if they are fishing only for keepers) where the muppet sweeps the fruit aside onto the floor with disgust before he buries his face in the, um, I’m gonna pretend that is supposed to be “refined sugar”. On rivers where wild fish can’t be kept I have heard meat fisherman actually complain about the “goddamn wild fish” that waste their time! Usually this is after a day of getting skunked when we run into them cleaning a fish.

Second, for fly fisherman maybe the “refined sugar” should be under a big heavy glass cover since for us hatchery fish do seem a lot harder to attract to flies.

“Gravity is a harsh mistress!”, The Tick
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 05:06 PM
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Some habitat is so degraded they will never recover beyond the tiny fringe that's holding on, like the Deer Creek on the Stillaguamish river. Unfortunately for ever environmental project completed there is 10 approved that will degrade the environment even more. There is simply too many demands, logging, mining, urbanization, agricultural and just to many people on this world!
I think there should be rivers pumped full of hatchery fish for the kill crowds while trying to save the rivers that have best chance for Native fish to recover. Which brings up another point, what is recovery or restoration? Considering every single conservation org cant define what recovery is or looks like.

" Second, for fly fisherman maybe the “refined sugar” should be under a big heavy glass cover since for us hatchery fish do seem a lot harder to attract to flies "
Skamainia hatchery summer runs take flies just fine, even take dries well. Chambers fish, definitely!

Tight lines! B K Paige
"Occupy Skagit"
Wishin I was fishin the Sauk!!!
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Rifflehitch View Post
Which brings up another point, what is recovery or restoration? Considering every single conservation org cant define what recovery is or looks like.
Recovery under ESA listings involves specific criteria, such as developed for Puget Sound steelhead, detailed starting around page 120 of this document

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/resou...t-oncorhynchus
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 06:59 PM
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Here is what I found I. SSPey’s document for criteria for listing and de-listing.

Criteria for Delisting
NMFS will remove the Puget Sound steelhead DPS from federal protection under the ESA when it determines that:
(1) The species has achieved a biological status consistent with recovery, meaning the best available information indicates it has sufficient abundance, population growth rate, population spatial structure, and diversity to indicate it has met the biological recovery goals (see Section 4.2.2.1 for specific delisting metrics); and
(2) Factors that led to ESA listing have been reduced or eliminated to the point where federal protection under the ESA is no longer needed, and there is reasonable certainty that the relevant regulatory mechanisms are adequate to protect Puget Sound steelhead viability (see Section 4.3 for specific delisting metrics).

Here are the five factors that lead to ESA listing

The five listing factors from the ESA, section 4(a)(1), include:
A. The present or threatened destruction, modification, or curtailment of the species’ habitat or range;
B. Overutilization for commercial, recreational, scientific, or educational purposes;
C. Disease or predation;
D. Inadequacy of existing regulatory mechanisms; and
E. Other natural or human-made factors affecting the species’ continued existence.

Mike.


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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by swingndeep View Post
Here is what I found I. SSPey’s document for criteria for listing and de-listing.

Criteria for Delisting
NMFS will remove the Puget Sound steelhead DPS from federal protection under the ESA when it determines that:
(1) The species has achieved a biological status consistent with recovery, meaning the best available information indicates it has sufficient abundance, population growth rate, population spatial structure, and diversity to indicate it has met the biological recovery goals (see Section 4.2.2.1 for specific delisting metrics); and
(2) Factors that led to ESA listing have been reduced or eliminated to the point where federal protection under the ESA is no longer needed, and there is reasonable certainty that the relevant regulatory mechanisms are adequate to protect Puget Sound steelhead viability (see Section 4.3 for specific delisting metrics).

Here are the five factors that lead to ESA listing

The five listing factors from the ESA, section 4(a)(1), include:
A. The present or threatened destruction, modification, or curtailment of the species’ habitat or range;
B. Overutilization for commercial, recreational, scientific, or educational purposes;
C. Disease or predation;
D. Inadequacy of existing regulatory mechanisms; and
E. Other natural or human-made factors affecting the species’ continued existence.

Mike.

According to those 5 listing factors and delisting requirements, humanity will never be able to overturn those with the human population growth and environmental destruction that is going on.

Tight lines! B K Paige
"Occupy Skagit"
Wishin I was fishin the Sauk!!!
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 08:57 PM
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Is that Elmo face down in a pile of cocaine? Must be a gear guy (muppet).
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 09:31 PM
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Weary of the 'gear guy' digs, less of them vs.us…

Malcolm
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-09-2020, 11:05 AM
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While the hatchery question interests me, I believe that the salmon conservation community would be better served by focusing on excessive, non-selective harvest at this time. Available evidence shows that the primary cause of low returns is poor ocean survival, likely associated with temperature and chemical anomalies that have disrupted food chains and the distribution of ocean fauna. Acidification and warming of ocean waters are not easy to fix and while we are likely to see substantial variations in ocean survival, the situation screams for a reduction in harvest if we are to maintain viable populations throughout their range. Hatcheries cannot solve this problem with poor ocean survival.

Reducing harvest would increase survival to spawning, increasing the species likelihood of survival. It would also provide for better angling sport for all anglers. In a political sense, I see advocacy for reducing non-selective harvest something that all anglers, from egg-sack drifters to dry fly purists, could support. And I note that Washington's Wild Fish Conservancy is leading the way. Lawsuit Aims to Protect West Coast Salmon for Starving Orcas ? Wild Fish Conservancy

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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-09-2020, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
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Human intervention into salmon reproduction has proven to have adverse consequences.

Bristol Bay Sockeye: A very diverse run to many tributaries. Possible genetic mix and 100% natural spawning ground : For the last decade ( with exception of few rivers at given season only ) runs were at or well above historical average. There is control harvest with rate in 50-65% range, and fish still is coming.

Skeena Sockeye
feeds in the same area as B. Bay fish. Prior to introduction of Fulton Channels ( where now most of a wild fish spawns ) at Babie Lake 30 years ago or so, , runs were more diversified beyond Babine Lake. Greed and stupidity resulted in overharvest, so they decided to create Fulton Channels, were after hatching juvenile salmon is very crowded !!!!; do they have the same survival rate as fish in minority which spawn in other part of the Lake ????). NOW Fulton fish dominates the run, not diversity and despite only 15% or so harvest rate ( only if run is above 1 million) runs were better then 1.1 million only 4 times int he last decade !!!

In the past 1.5 to 3 millions runs were common.

Nass river, has been beaten by gilnetters every time Skeena is close and Sockeye is still doing better then in Skeena.

The only way to bring Skeena Sockeye back is steadily, year by year eliminate Fulton Channels over e.g. 4-5 years, to avoid shock for resident fish which depends on eggs and flesh.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-10-2020, 02:48 AM
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What is it? for every fly fisherman there is what 5 10 15 20 or more? fisherman using gear or bait??

Most of the people here are fine people but the vast majority are for native fishies ONLY! past post on this says it all
and most here subscribe to CPR fishing!! ( Catch photograph release )

Most people that go fishing go fishing to catch take home and eat!!

both gear / bait and fly fisherman are tail end Charlies in this sport of fishing!! We get what is left of the run when the fishies get to the rivers!! YOU all know where the vast majority of the runs end up at
as have been posted here many times!!

I had a State Trooper out checking for licenses and tags on the river hit and check every gear/bait fisherman out there but he did not check me or the other spey fisherman! So I had to ask him why we were not checked?
simple he said you guys are out here fishing with the cost of your gear rods reels and are packs not to mention waders and all that you wont take that chance I will take all your gear and all and or a hefty fine for not having a license and tags!
so you single gear/bait fisherman out as criminals? I said! no he said but most people out these day fishing means food at dinner and a lot can not afford the cost to fish and you would be surprised how many people fish without a license he said!!

Elmo? yes it is funny but will you show that to your 4 5 or 6 year old then try to explain why Elmo is doing that?

yes hatcheries suck and are worthless we need to get rid of that evil!!

when a fish means food at dinner what fish will be going home if not a hatchery fish?

how many of you when you go out to fish only take your fly rods and how many of you take a spinning rod or and a bait caster with your fly rod??
I know a lot do! I have seen a lot on the Deschutes and everywhere else with both types of rods
sometimes I do depending if I go fishing with my Son

My Father use to do redneck fly fishing when I first got a fly rod and learned how to fish with it when I would catch fish and he did not
it took one trip to G I Joes to get some split shot weights a few red and white bobbers some light line a light rod and reel
put the shot weights above the bobber then leader and one of my G I Joes store bought flies and he was catching fish on a fly

MY Point?? CPR fishing vs Food Fishing what one out numbers the other and what is the percentage going to go up to in the future?
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-10-2020, 01:28 PM
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This is the reality
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin View Post
so you single gear/bait fisherman out as criminals? I said! no he said but most people out these day fishing means food at dinner
This is what we have to live with:

"yes hatcheries suck and are worthless we need to get rid of that evil!!"-Merlin

WE have to figure out a way to make it work or risk not fishing at all.
My 0.02
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-10-2020, 02:54 PM Thread Starter
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Idea that people have to go fishing and at the same time feed their families is insane....It was possible in 40,50, 60's but now now. Hatchery can not even crank enough fish to support those people. Hatchery fish is not strong enough to survive an adverse Ocean conditions.

Either we fish for pleasure or no fishing at all. It is that simple. Only special places like certain rivers in Alaska can effort both, due to large and sustainable runs and low population.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-10-2020, 06:34 PM
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Like it or not, many local, rural folks living near a river do go out with the intention of filling their freezers. Many do quite well and count on their catch to supplement their larder. And there are the guides that count on lots of fish to catch to keep themselves in business. To persuade these groups to fish for pure enjoyment is a very difficult if not impossible task. Most of these folks have no desire to take up fly fishing or engage in C&R. They also vote and have political influence. I wish there were an easy solution.
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-10-2020, 08:07 PM
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Hey I like Hatchery fish that is just me I think at least here on spey pages!
yup hatchery fish can not support what fisherman will take home but the native runs can not support what goes into all the nets!!
and still make it up river to spawn but no matter what side of this argument you talk to there is no middle ground this site has proven that!
so shut up keep your thoughts to yourself then watch the fishies disappear??

My Son went to a river two and a half weeks ago they have had a great run of hatchery fish and they fish right around this hatchery I think most here know the name of this river
but my son and two of his friends got there an hour before sun up! there is no camping aloud or overnight sleeping but when they got there the place was packed
so they parked and flashlight in hands went to find a spot and every place they looked there was a bunch of rods already places staking out that spot!
they did find a place to fish but not where the action mostly is at! yes they did catch fish but it took longer but in the course of the day before they left they had counted 11 fights that broke out

when I went up there about 4 weeks ago I seen two different guys that had been in a fight both in different spots
when I was a kid my father took me to places like it was at this river combat fishing he called it yes there was arguments but I never seen anyone fight at the river!
today? call it what you want
native fish can not support it all and thrive and rebuild!!! NOT NOW the way everything is!!
I guess they can take that white powder stuff and take it to the hatcheries and put it into the rearing pens for hatchery steelhead get then addicted to it so we can make powder flies to catch them

when you have blinders on you only see in tunnel vision
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