A sad tale - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
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A sad tale

The Deschutes 30/30 post sent me off on a little research of what went wrong in New England. I was up on the Connecticut River two weeks ago looking at Turners Falls in Greenfield MA and Salmon falls on the Deerfield and dreaming of what it looked like when Salmon were leaping through the white water just like they did at Celilo Falls on the Columbia when I was a kid. I found this sad tale on the National Park Service website. Despite a sustained effort by State and Federal agencies, Atlantic Salmon recovery in New England is farther from success than ever. I think the Feds have thrown in the towel here. We can't let this happen on the Pacific Coast.
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 01:02 PM
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I think this will provide some perspective.

https://tributariesdigitalcinema.com...e-fly-fishing/

Dan
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Which way to the river?
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 02:06 PM
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It's really just so tragic. It will be very hard to turn this barge around. Humanity needs to adopt the concept of population control and reduction. I know it's anti-freedom, so it conflicts with my core beliefs, but it really is the only way to share this environment responsibly with the other lifeforms. And, why do we need 8 billion and growing versus say 2 billion and stable. Why is it better? Having smarter usages and reduced consumption and recycling all helps stave off the inevitable for longer, and is a great starting point, but a population change is necessary if we don't want to cannibalize our resources for other life forms. 8 billion and counting is just too many for other species to handle, as evidenced by being in the midst of one of the largest extinction events in history, according to reports. Now, some massive technological breakthrough could change my opinion, but it better happen fast...
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 02:31 PM
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wow, So which 6 billion do you think should be culled and who gets to pick them??? Pretty sure they won't volunteer.
Wasn't there a series of movies about that idea.....


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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 04:00 PM
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You're misunderstanding. I don't suggest culling lol - for the obvious reasons. We need to curb our birth rates, stop incentivizing births in the tax codes, start dis-incentivizing births in the tax codes, etc. It would be a long process to stop the 210,000 new humans on earth PER DAY (360,000 births per day vs 150,000 deaths per day).
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom.B View Post
..... I found this sad tale on the National Park Service website. Despite a sustained effort by State and Federal agencies, Atlantic Salmon recovery in New England is farther from success than ever. I think the Feds have thrown in the towel here. We can't let this happen on the Pacific Coast.
The History Through a Pinhole article is excellent. Thanks for sharing.

Atlantic salmon are tough, if not impossible to restore or introduce into a new watershed. The Brits and others attempted to introduce ocean-going Atlantic salmon in various places around the world over nearly 2 centuries and were singularly unsuccessful.

Some success was had with introducing Landlocked Atlantic salmon into fresh water environments. Three locations in Argentina come to mind.

Pacific salmon are the opposite. They are aggressive, successful colonizers.

Improving outcomes for west coast Pacific salmon will require anglers to rethink their open access entitlement.

°

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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-22-2019, 06:37 PM
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Came across this article on the critical response to Archeologist Catherine C. Carlson's work on Atlantic salmon in New England.

Carlson responds to work criticizing her 1992 New England salmon hypothesis

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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-23-2019, 12:05 PM
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Interesting view on what the history of Atlantics may actually have been in NEw England (also strange that I probably passed the author more than once in Nutting Hall, where I was a forestry undergrad at UMaine when she was a grad student). The attempts at salmon restoration were hot and heavy in the late 70’s when I was growing up in Connecticut, and was always considered to be right on the edge of success... and never got there. At the same time, a small but viable sea-run brown population that only a few us knew about established itself in the Norwalk River, at the southern end of the Atlantic Salmon’s historic range, with zero help from any organization. To my (non-anthropologist, non-fisheries biologist) mind, that may point to the viability of Dr. Carlson’s hypothesis. Food for thought.

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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-23-2019, 02:30 PM
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I'm no expert on this, but it seems that the most impactful threats to Atlantic salmon (and these likely apply to Pacific species as well) include dams and other inland habitat loss, clear cutting, nets/commercial fishing, and negative oceanic habitat changes. Maine, which had the last and best runs of Atlantics in the US until the late 1980's has removed some dams, but there are still too many. Clear cutting in riparian areas has been all but eliminated. The inland commercial fishery has been banned for ages, and the oceanic one drastically reduced. Ocean survival of smolts seems to be a real problem, but also a great unknown. So, we have made some progress on about two and a half of the four major problems. My guess is that we would need to make real and transformative changes on at least three and maybe all four if we ever want to fish for Atlantics in Maine again. I'm not confident that this will happen.

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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-23-2019, 05:15 PM
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....My guess is that we would need to make real and transformative changes on at least three and maybe all four if we ever want to fish for Atlantics in Maine again. I'm not confident that this will happen.
Aldo,

Can you please cite one example where sea-going Atlantic salmon have been successfully introduced into a new environment or restored to a watershed where they had been previously extirpated.

All I want is just one example. One successful case study. That is not too much to ask is it?

If you cannot come up with a successful precedent, then why would these conditions you raise actually matter? (Aside from the fact that there is lots of clear-cut logging in New Brunswick and Quebec and yet there are lots of salmon except for a few streams where runs were destroyed by dams or agriculture.)

Do you plan on using prayer circles or waiting for a technological miracle, perhaps genetically-modified Atlantic salmon?

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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-23-2019, 06:48 PM
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Aldo,

Can you please cite one example where sea-going Atlantic salmon have been successfully introduced into a new environment or restored to a watershed where they had been previously extirpated.

All I want is just one example. One successful case study. That is not too much to ask is it?

If you cannot come up with a successful precedent, then why would these conditions you raise actually matter? (Aside from the fact that there is lots of clear-cut logging in New Brunswick and Quebec and yet there are lots of salmon except for a few streams where runs were destroyed by dams or agriculture.)

Do you plan on using prayer circles or waiting for a technological miracle, perhaps genetically-modified Atlantic salmon?
Enso, is there a watershed and ocean anywhere where salmon have been extirpated but where all the conditions I mentioned above have been fully addressed in a restoration effort? All I want is just one example. One case study to show that it was entirely ineffective. That is not too much to ask is it?

Until that is done, it is just as speculative to say that it wouldn't work as it is to say that it would. That's how science works, right? Until someone produces definitive results either way, it remains....Unknown? Yes. Possible? Perhaps. Countless, unsuccessful case attempts at human flight were made for hundreds of years before the Wright brothers got aloft. I'm old enough to remember the extirpation and recovery of other species from brook trout to striped bass in my local rivers. But yes, they are not Atlantic salmon, and their biology and ecology are very different. However, it is also worth noting that at least two Maine rivers - the Kennebec and Penobscot - have very small but still viable populations of breeding Atlantics. They're not completely gone yet.

I realize the near (and some would say, legitimately, complete) impossibility of ever removing all dams on any watershed, pulling all the nets out of the Atlantic, and discovering and reversing whatever ocean conditions are suppressing smolt survival. That's why I said I'm not confident that it will ever happen.


Apparently, that bit of understatement was entirely misinterpreted.


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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-23-2019, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by eriefisher View Post
I think this will provide some perspective.

https://tributariesdigitalcinema.com...e-fly-fishing/

Dan
Darn thats good Dan. Thanks so much for posting that link.
Very inspiring... and don't give up!
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-24-2019, 01:21 AM
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In a world that has too few salmon, I'm less concerned about which rivers did or didn't have them, and more concerned about where they might survive today. Toward that end, a look at the East Machias River in Maine can offer hope. A recovery program patterned after one that brought salmon back to the Tyne River in NE England, is duplicating the strategies used by Peter Gray. Called the Peter Gray Parr Project, it minimizes the negative effects of domestication and prepares juvenile salmon (parr) to accommodate the rigors of natural rearing instream.
Coordinated through the efforts of the Downeast Salmon Federation, it involves the community, schools and its staff in all aspects of providing healthy habitat for their 'little athletes'. A young program, it has received adult returns only three years thus far. BUT, this fall they've counted 60 redds as of last week!
If you'd like to be a part of an exciting recovery solution, your membership $ will contribute to their cause and keep you abreast of their activities through a fine newsletter.
btw, their E.D. ( Dwayne Shaw) provided comments in the video Dan shared with us above.
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-25-2019, 01:00 PM
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Frankly, efforts at salmon restoration have generally been piecemeal - a dam here, a culvert there - with little broad watershed passage and habitat evaluation. I believe restoration is possible, even with little evidence - because I must. To be a conservationist one must have hope. After all, fishing is a continual exercise in hope. Never give up.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-25-2019, 04:56 PM
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I remember the Bangor Salmon Pool and it's salmon as a kid growing up. The runs on the Penobscot River varied from year to year, but they were always there for a fly rod and POTUS was always presented with the first salmon. To watch those runs die, the collapse of the George's Bank cod fishery, and now the steelhead of the Columbia River and tributaries is disheartening, to say the least.
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