Bristol Bay/EPA situation - Page 3 - Spey Pages
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post #31 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 09:57 AM
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I am glad that everyone here is so passionate about salmonids and their respective fisheries. It seems though that there is a great political divide here on this site. It also seems to me that it is important to look at the facts and decide one's own view on the current issues and realize that complete neutrality is rare and that all media outlets are biased. The informed one looks at both (all) sides and forms a perspective that alllows one to adjust and shift their position according to the best available knowledge, rather than adhering to the current political pundit with which one agreees. Also, should'nt we be able to disagree? Why can't the love of swinging flies be enough to establish commonon ground. Let us all discover where the truth lies and go from there.

Nate
Well said.
The news media years ago split the audience...each taking a seperate path and agenda. The only way youre going to get close to factual stories is to read multiple sources. Sadly we no longer have "news" reporting but journalism catering to a political audience which has divided this country more than any individual could possibly do.
It is best to question everything you hear these days.

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post #32 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 04:56 PM
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Well said.
The news media years ago split the audience...each taking a seperate path and agenda. The only way youre going to get close to factual stories is to read multiple sources. Sadly we no longer have "news" reporting but journalism catering to a political audience which has divided this country more than any individual could possibly do.
It is best to question everything you hear these days.
"Don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."
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post #33 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 10:25 PM
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Just in case folks re feeling like "both sides do it"-

https://www.eenews.net/greenwire/201...72E-ZbHdM2Eguk
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post #34 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-17-2019, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Steelchromedome View Post
I am glad that everyone here is so passionate about salmonids and their respective fisheries. It seems though that there is a great political divide here on this site. It also seems to me that it is important to look at the facts and decide one's own view on the current issues and realize that complete neutrality is rare and that all media outlets are biased. The informed one looks at both (all) sides and forms a perspective that alllows one to adjust and shift their position according to the best available knowledge, rather than adhering to the current political pundit with which one agreees. Also, should'nt we be able to disagree? Why can't the love of swinging flies be enough to establish commonon ground. Let us all discover where the truth lies and go from there.

Nate
But Nate, we know where the truth lies. History shows us projects like these typically end up ruining the environment and destroying the natural balance even after all the protections promised. Science tells us, and has told us the effects of such destruction. Our own inner voices and gut feelings and common sense tell us this will not end well. Yes, it’s great we can all come together on salmonoids, swinging flies, etc. , unfortunately this is not enough. Maybe some don’t recognize the importance of this issue, so I’ll leave it at this. “ When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you”.
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post #35 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 11:39 PM
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The EPA was the first agency that was gutted by the current administration. That is a fact.
The National Park Service was forcibly suppressed and gutted and became the ALT National Park service on facebook. That is a fact.
The current EPA has been repealing laws at every possible turn. This is also a fact.
There has never in the history of mining been a clean safe mine. This is also a fact.

I believe these two things are tied together, the selling of public lands in Wilderness areas, and the ability of investors and private parties buying the land for industrial exploitation. I believe exploitation is the correct word because I believe no laws will be followed and nothing will be cleaned up and the area and its people and wildlife will suffer.



My opinion- The way things are these days and the severe general disregard for any environmental laws including the deletion of scientific fact from state and government websites, Industry cannot be trusted to police itself which is what they propose to do.

The risk vs reward at three sites of concern for me is a one way street- Reward for business and stockholders. The three sites of concern for me are the Pebble mine, The mines on the border of the BWCA and the new mine on the Menomonie. The amount of temporary jobs and plant jobs are not worth the risk. Blue collar conservatives act like they are going to get rich personally from these mines which is far from the truth.

While I know we need mines and we can't all just live in the woods on berries and nuts, the push to mine at any cost is nothing more than a money grab, in fact in the long run these mines are more about stock prices and investors than the actual profit and jobs.

The risk is not worth the reward, especially when we have mines in areas that are sitting idle on old established mine sites in North America. The market is flooded with cheap metals.


There are many myths that just won't die and its always laughable when the internet keeps them alive. I've lived on the Iron range and Ive worked in the mines, and I know about the poverty boom and bust cycle of the north woods, when you see the large scale devastation that barely keeps small towns from becoming ghost towns, the answer does NOT logically become mine more, it becomes the question of why are`nt we diversified into other industries and more tourism and the strengths of the area. The value and widespread jobs speaking of my state and the BWCA is worth far more than a new mine.

Who is getting rich off the mine? Are they even paying taxes?


I laugh out loud at your puny little wolves and wolf packs in the west and how scared everyone is. Here in Minnesota the areas that have good whitetail deer habitat and wolf packs there are more deer and bonus tags for deer. they keep the population healthy. They do not eat everything in sight, and they do take a calf or two every few years off the land but that is the cost of doing business in the woods. There are 13 wolves on my deer hunting land, I saw one last fall that went 2 bills. The place has always had wolves and deer long before white farmers showed up from Scandinavia.

Usually the people here that complain about wolves are slob hunters that want to take 5 deer a piece when one or two is all that's needed.

The wolves are supposed to be there, there is a relationship between wolves and moose and caribou and deer.
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post #36 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-22-2019, 11:46 AM
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Healey along with California Attorney General Xavier Becerra (D) said they expect several other states to join them in a lawsuit against the federal government. Many environmental groups have likewise said they will sue.

Becerra said the power to change the Endangered Species Act lies squarely with Congress, not the administration, and violates the Administrative Procedure Act by not following the review process for creating new regulations.
“This administration is trying to change the law by breaking the law and that’s not going to stand,” Becerra said
.

It should be no surprise to anyone that FOG crime organization acts illegally.

Only congress can alter the Act.

Once rule is posted to the Federal Register lawsuits by Congress, Sates etc. . will be launched.

Very soon Orange Gangster will announced that he is dissolving congress and will rule USA single-handed, creating Party on One ( Cesar D.J. Trump). He will tweet his cultists that what constitution says and guess what, they will all believe in it.............

He is so envy of Putin and N.orean. dictator, that they are an absolute rulers and he has to deal with a pesky US Congress........
This made me laugh! I am with you guys on protecting the environment.....many conservatives are. I don’t know the ins and outs of the Bristol bay scenario so I can’t comment there. If what you are saying is true, then I directly oppose the administrations decosions.

But, I know the constitution very well. Have a copy in my house, and have had it well before Trump was elected. I am not a cultist, and it’s a little offensive to those of us with different political views than you when you talk in this manner. Just because I disagree with your political views as a whole (not everything, we probably agree on a lot) doesn’t make me a cultist or hater or worshipper of a dictator. Maybe if you and others with your political bent didn’t approach these subjects with such vehement disgust towards people who disagree with you we would actually get farther??

Just a thought
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post #37 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-22-2019, 12:01 PM
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This made me laugh! I am with you guys on protecting the environment.....many conservatives are. I don’t know the ins and outs of the Bristol bay scenario so I can’t comment there. If what you are saying is true, then I directly oppose the administrations decosions.

But, I know the constitution very well. Have a copy in my house, and have had it well before Trump was elected. I am not a cultist, and it’s a little offensive to those of us with different political views than you when you talk in this manner. Just because I disagree with your political views as a whole (not everything, we probably agree on a lot) doesn’t make me a cultist or hater or worshipper of a dictator. Maybe if you and others with your political bent didn’t approach these subjects with such vehement disgust towards people who disagree with you we would actually get farther??

Just a thought
Indeed I tend to meet the most pleasant republicans when I go fly fishing - They usually represent what I would consider the "old" republican party... unfortunately, thats not what is represented by the current government. And since many of the decisions of the current government are very difficult to "fix" later, discussions become a bit heated..
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Last edited by twists; 08-22-2019 at 12:37 PM.
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post #38 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-22-2019, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Yooper-Fly View Post
This made me laugh! I am with you guys on protecting the environment.....many conservatives are. I don’t know the ins and outs of the Bristol bay scenario so I can’t comment there. If what you are saying is true, then I directly oppose the administrations decosions.

But, I know the constitution very well. Have a copy in my house, and have had it well before Trump was elected. I am not a cultist, and it’s a little offensive to those of us with different political views than you when you talk in this manner. Just because I disagree with your political views as a whole (not everything, we probably agree on a lot) doesn’t make me a cultist or hater or worshipper of a dictator. Maybe if you and others with your political bent didn’t approach these subjects with such vehement disgust towards people who disagree with you we would actually get farther??

Just a thought
Indeed I tend to meet the most pleasant republicans when I go fly fishing <img src="http://www.speypages.com/speyclave/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" /> - They usually represent what I would consider the "old" republican party... unfortunately, thats not what is represented by the current government. And since many of the decisions of the current government are very difficult to "fix" later, discussions become a bit heated..
I have no problem with heated discussions, they can be very healthy. The issue I have is the intolerance of a different view that comes out generally very antagonist and disrespectful. I understand the division in politics today, and I am also aware that this kind of rhetoric also comes from Republicans as well. All I am saying is that; as a White Christian male, I am already generally put into a category, especially when they find out that I have a bent towards conservatism. I don’t believe that the Republican Party today truly represents all of my views nor do I claim they are wonderful loving Christian people, I’m just saying that according to the constitution, I am allowed to have a voice too, and when people disrespect that and get very rude and hateful, it doesn’t produce much fruit or positive outcomes.

In fact, it makes them seem quite similar to the people and party they disdain so much.

But, that’s just my opinion man. All good
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post #39 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-22-2019, 05:38 PM
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How do Alaskans view this proposed mine? My understanding is that the Gov of Alaska supports it. Maybe the Governor needs to feel some heat. Seems like he's getting a free pass in the discussions I've seen on this.
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post #40 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-22-2019, 06:18 PM
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Realistically, lawsuits will for sure postpone it until Spring 2020 and only election can affects Go and no Go for this mine.

Just already issued permit by Army of Corps of Engineers ( still State of AK and EPA has to do it) is a pure fraud, so it would be easy for new administration to rescind it.

For that reason, no financial institution will lend Northern Dynasty 5-6 billion , to build the mine, until they are 100% clear. In the end 6 billions has to be paid off. It is not 100 millions.........
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post #41 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-23-2019, 12:33 AM
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This made me laugh! I am with you guys on protecting the environment.....many conservatives are. I don’t know the ins and outs of the Bristol bay scenario so I can’t comment there. If what you are saying is true, then I directly oppose the administrations decosions.

But, I know the constitution very well. Have a copy in my house, and have had it well before Trump was elected. I am not a cultist, and it’s a little offensive to those of us with different political views than you when you talk in this manner. Just because I disagree with your political views as a whole (not everything, we probably agree on a lot) doesn’t make me a cultist or hater or worshipper of a dictator. Maybe if you and others with your political bent didn’t approach these subjects with such vehement disgust towards people who disagree with you we would actually get farther??

Just a thought
I probably wouldn’t even bother to respond to this if I didn’t get the distinct impression that you are a stand up guy overall. I don’t take exception to the general thrust of your message here, BUT... I gotta say that if you view the current political reality we live under to be one of merely “different opinions”, and are surprised or hurt by the volume and tone of criticisms being lobbed at the current administration, you must be missing a lot of big items in the news today. This forum is not the place, obviously, to hash all that out. If you arent familiar with the Bristol Bay, or the issues with the proposed Pebble Mine, you really REALLY need to educate yourself on this ASAP!

There are very legitimate reasons for every ounce of anger you are detecting here! For the record, I believe most of us bitting our tongues as best we can; but this is WAY too important to not speak up on.
JB
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post #42 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-23-2019, 06:40 AM
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This made me laugh! I am with you guys on protecting the environment.....many conservatives are. I don’t know the ins and outs of the Bristol bay scenario so I can’t comment there. If what you are saying is true, then I directly oppose the administrations decosions.

But, I know the constitution very well. Have a copy in my house, and have had it well before Trump was elected. I am not a cultist, and it’s a little offensive to those of us with different political views than you when you talk in this manner. Just because I disagree with your political views as a whole (not everything, we probably agree on a lot) doesn’t make me a cultist or hater or worshipper of a dictator. Maybe if you and others with your political bent didn’t approach these subjects with such vehement disgust towards people who disagree with you we would actually get farther??

Just a thought
I probably wouldn’t even bother to respond to this if I didn’t get the distinct impression that you are a stand up guy overall. I don’t take exception to the general thrust of your message here, BUT... I gotta say that if you view the current political reality we live under to be one of merely “different opinions”, and are surprised or hurt by the volume and tone of criticisms being lobbed at the current administration, you must be missing a lot of big items in the news today. This forum is not the place, obviously, to hash all that out. If you arent familiar with the Bristol Bay, or the issues with the proposed Pebble Mine, you really REALLY need to educate yourself on this ASAP!

There are very legitimate reasons for every ounce of anger you are detecting here! For the record, I believe most of us bitting our tongues as best we can; but this is WAY too important to not speak up on.
JB
Well, looks like I should check it out for sure! Have a good day man

You make known to me the path of life;
in your presence there is fullness of joy;
at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

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post #43 of 54 (permalink) Old 09-06-2019, 09:54 PM
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Healey along with California Attorney General Xavier Becerra (D) said they expect several other states to join them in a lawsuit against the federal government. Many environmental groups have likewise said they will sue.

Becerra said the power to change the Endangered Species Act lies squarely with Congress, not the administration, and violates the Administrative Procedure Act by not following the review process for creating new regulations.
“This administration is trying to change the law by breaking the law and that’s not going to stand,” Becerra said
.

It should be no surprise to anyone that FOG crime organization acts illegally.

Only congress can alter the Act.

Once rule is posted to the Federal Register lawsuits by Congress, Sates etc. . will be launched.

Very soon Orange Gangster will announced that he is dissolving congress and will rule USA single-handed, creating Party on One ( Cesar D.J. Trump). He will tweet his cultists that what constitution says and guess what, they will all believe in it.............

He is so envy of Putin and N.orean. dictator, that they are an absolute rulers and he has to deal with a pesky US Congress........
The moderators tolerate this kind of divisive political crap?
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post #44 of 54 (permalink) Old 09-07-2019, 02:48 AM
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....

Last edited by twists; 09-07-2019 at 03:00 AM. Reason: No point arguing...
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post #45 of 54 (permalink) Old 09-07-2019, 11:01 AM
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The proposed footprint for the Pebble Mine is indeed big.

I would guess that the economic contribution of sportfishing to the state is very small compared the potential contribution of the mine.

So, may I ask the obvious question: why do anglers insist on open access fishing? Let's ignore the the fact that it looks horrible from an ecological perspective and just focus on the more traditional economics.

Provinces and states like open-pit large volume porphyry mines that typically target copper, gold and molybdenum because they generate significant rents: profits, high wages and lots of net revenues for government. Property rights are secure, nobody fights for a rock to stand on. These mines can sometimes provide a generation or more of stable, high paying employment.

Now let's examine angling where proponents like to use input-output multipliers, in particular gross output multipliers where the same good is n-counted so the results look those of Keynesian macroeconomic models from half a century ago.

You would think that lay people would catch on to the notion that estimating 'benefits' by adding up costs can be problematic.

You hear the stories about how the outfitters 'do business' in Alaska and you know it is quote unquote 'competitive'. Elbows up competitive. (Why pay your supplier when you don't have to? This is zero-sum capitalism 101!)

We also know that fly-in locations in Alaska are great places to do rigorous studies on sub-lethally damaged fish. Damaged by anglers. That hints at excessive entry and a high latent willingness to pay for the experience.

Alaska sport fishing generates some net revenue for the state because of the large number of out-of-state tourist anglers. Under an intensively managed system with expensive use fees, those net revenues for the state would be much higher.

My suggestion is simple. If you want to defend watersheds and fisheries from potential threats, build some real socio-economic value into recreational fisheries.

°

Science is not common sense. Much of it is devoted to a systematic documentation of what we do not know and understand.
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