Disappearing glaciers NYT article - Page 6 - Spey Pages
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post #76 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 07:38 AM
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It does my heart good to see this subject...which all too often becomes most unpleasant...remain civil.

I am the world's worst at researching anything on line...a certifiable computer dunce. My anecdotal story below probably needs someone who can either verify or disprove what it says. A little help please.

I don't know if this is true or the usual urban myth...but...the story goes that in order to begin saving money and helping the environment the federal government installed solar panels at a federal fish hatchery in Ennis, Montana at a cost of some $70,000,000 (million). Annual power cost savings would eventually pay for the panels in 70 years. One problem...the life expectancy of the panels is 40 years. THAT is why I'm hesitant to have the government oversee the solutions to help make this a cleaner better planet. If not true...there is still something that rings true about what they handle our tax money!!

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post #77 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 07:45 AM
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It does my heart good to see this subject...which all too often becomes most unpleasant...remain civil.

I am the world's worst at researching anything on line...a certifiable computer dunce. My anecdotal story below probably needs someone who can either verify or disprove what it says. A little help please.

I don't know if this is true or the usual urban myth...but...the story goes that in order to begin saving money and helping the environment the federal government installed solar panels at a federal fish hatchery in Ennis, Montana at a cost of some $70,000,000 (million). Annual power cost savings would eventually pay for the panels in 70 years. One problem...the life expectancy of the panels is 40 years. THAT is why I'm hesitant to have the government oversee the solutions to help make this a cleaner better planet. If not true...there is still something that rings true about what they handle our tax money!!
Well, technology will only become cheaper if it gets more often used, by further development and economy of scale...
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post #78 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 12:48 PM
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It does my heart good to see this subject...which all too often becomes most unpleasant...remain civil.

I am the world's worst at researching anything on line...a certifiable computer dunce. My anecdotal story below probably needs someone who can either verify or disprove what it says. A little help please.

I don't know if this is true or the usual urban myth...but...the story goes that in order to begin saving money and helping the environment the federal government installed solar panels at a federal fish hatchery in Ennis, Montana at a cost of some $70,000,000 (million). Annual power cost savings would eventually pay for the panels in 70 years. One problem...the life expectancy of the panels is 40 years. THAT is why I'm hesitant to have the government oversee the solutions to help make this a cleaner better planet. If not true...there is still something that rings true about what they handle our tax money!!
Well, your figures are off by about 69 some million.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-b...atche_b_692307

Here's the original article from PERC.
https://www.perc.org/2010/08/21/talk...n-yellowstone/

You should know that the deep thinkers at PERC are against the Montana stream access law, written into our state constitution, and think public waters should be privatized with the dubious argument being that if our waters were privatized it would be better for the environment and the fish.
I have no interest in remaining civil where PERC is concerned. I've actually met a couple of their people.

The point isn't that the absolute cheapest way to power everything should be used. The point is to find cleaner energy sources and yes, they might cost a bit more.

There are all kinds of people who purchase solar power for their homes knowing the return on investment is decades away. They don't do it in the hopes of gaming the system. They do it to help minimize their carbon footprint and because they like the idea of being energy self sufficient as much as they can be.

Solar systems for average houses are somewhere around $20,000 after tax credits, sometimes they are a little bit more, sometimes less, it depends on a variety of factors. The main takeaway from this is that messing around with solar for your house costs less than a new vehicle.
You will also get that money back over time and some systems being installed today will pay for themselves over time and actually save you money.
My neighbor across the street is doing and has been doing exactly that for a few years now. I'm thinking about doing it in the future. I think it would be fun and a good way to spend my money.
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post #79 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 01:11 PM
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Well, your figures are off by about 69 some million.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-b...atche_b_692307

Here's the original article from PERC.
https://www.perc.org/2010/08/21/talk...n-yellowstone/

You should know that the deep thinkers at PERC are against the Montana stream access law, written into our state constitution, and think public waters should be privatized with the dubious argument being that if our waters were privatized it would be better for the environment and the fish.
I have no interest in remaining civil where PERC is concerned. I've actually met a couple of their people.

The point isn't that the absolute cheapest way to power everything should be used. The point is to find cleaner energy sources and yes, they might cost a bit more.

There are all kinds of people who purchase solar power for their homes knowing the return on investment is decades away. They don't do it in the hopes of gaming the system. They do it to help minimize their carbon footprint and because they like the idea of being energy self sufficient as much as they can be.

Solar systems for average houses are somewhere around $20,000 after tax credits, sometimes they are a little bit more, sometimes less, it depends on a variety of factors. The main takeaway from this is that messing around with solar for your house costs less than a new vehicle.
You will also get that money back over time and some systems being installed today will pay for themselves over time and actually save you money.
My neighbor across the street is doing and has been doing exactly that for a few years now. I'm thinking about doing it in the future. I think it would be fun and a good way to spend my money.
Thanks for the followup...like I said I wouldn't have had the faintest idea where to begin my search...and I WILL read those pieces!!
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George
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post #80 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 01:31 PM
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Thanks for the followup...like I said I wouldn't have had the faintest idea where to begin my search...and I WILL read those pieces!!
Read this one, too

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-b...atche_b_692307

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post #81 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 01:40 PM
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Will do.....

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post #82 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 09:23 PM
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Solar systems for average houses are somewhere around $20,000 after tax credits, sometimes they are a little bit more, sometimes less, it depends on a variety of factors. .
Wow, that's expensive. I didn't realise it cost that much in the US. I've got a 5kW system on my house (in Perth, Australia) that cost AUD$9,000 to install 3 years ago. That's about US$6,000.

I wonder if it's an "apples for apples" comparison though. Ours is just a series of panels and an inverter.

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post #83 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 09:50 PM
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Wow, that's expensive. I didn't realise it cost that much in the US. I've got a 5kW system on my house (in Perth, Australia) that cost AUD$9,000 to install 3 years ago. That's about US$6,000.

I wonder if it's an "apples for apples" comparison though. Ours is just a series of panels and an inverter.

Cheers,
Graeme
I was trying to throw out an average price of a larger system that should meet the needs of a typical middle class house in the U.S. based on what I've read when looking into it.
I'm not an expert, I was just trying to show that solar systems aren't that expensive.

Do you get any tax breaks or subsidies?

I just did a quick look around and came up with this;

https://news.energysage.com/how-much...st-in-the-u-s/

"In 2019, the average national solar panel cost is $3.05/watt. The average solar panel system size in the U.S is approximately 6 kilowatts (kW), therefore an average solar panel system would cost $12,810 after tax credits. Thatís more than two percent lower than it was just a year ago, and solar panel system costs are continuing to fall."


So I guess the figure I was tossing around is actually significantly larger than average according to this website anyway.
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post #84 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 10:01 PM
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Newspaper ad in Adelaide 2yrs ago had 3.24kw array for $2790 Australian. Our friends north of there have a 6kw system that was price incentivized and allow generation credits. Theirs is panels + inverter that is grid tied just like in the US (so yes, apples to apples). I believe they are Chinese panels. These days with the ensuing tariff follies, no comparisons are possible.
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post #85 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-19-2019, 01:23 AM
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Did the NY Times article ever mention the info contained in the article linked below?

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science...udy-ncna987116
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post #86 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-19-2019, 02:27 AM
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I was trying to throw out an average price of a larger system that should meet the needs of a typical middle class house in the U.S. based on what I've read when looking into it.
I'm not an expert, I was just trying to show that solar systems aren't that expensive.
...
So I guess the figure I was tossing around is actually significantly larger than average according to this website anyway.
Ah, that's okay. That's seems about right for a really high end system. I guess you could call us a middle-class family with matching house.

We opted for an expensive one, with German panels and inverter. Other quotes were half the price with Chinese panels and inverters.

We are able to sell surplus power to the grid so our power bill is reduced. There is also a small subsidy applied during installation if the inverter is 5kW or less. The installation company gets that directly so it's not an out-of-pocket expense to the home owner. (If we install more than 5kW, it's classed as a commercial operation and the subsidy doesn't apply.)

The installation halved our power bill, but we chose to do it for environmental reasons rather than to save money. The payback period looks like it will be well within the 10 year warranty though, perhaps about 6 years.

Cheers,
Graeme
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