Water boarding steelhead - Page 2 - Spey Pages
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post #16 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 05:31 AM
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Just because you see a picture of a fish out of water does NOT mean that fish is probably dead. Our lake run fish are all stocked and I treat mine like wild fish. All of my pictures have the fish out of the water for 3-4 seconds IF they come out of the water...and I don't beach fish. Can a normal person survive holding their breath for 3-4 seconds or am I a steelhead terrorist?

Like others have said, if you're that concerned about the well-being of the wild steelhead, STOP fishing for them period...
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post #17 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 06:35 AM
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Seahawk, don't take every thing you read as gospel, even the book of John....or Bill. There is plenty of data out there to dismiss this, while fishing for, hooking, playing and landing ANY fish is not good for it so we should just go back to a catch and kill fishery like it was in my youth and my dad still wants.
About as good of an anology as your's!

A river on the OP averages 125%(sport fishing) encounters to the wild steelhead, and has for years but still is strong. It had a brood stock program that had guids hook, land, net and put said steelhead in a tube until some one would colect and hold the fish at a hatchery until death for there eggs and milt, and had great great egg to smolt survival. Far worse handling than a quick picture or even several.
This same river also received plantings of chambers stock as well, but yet still had the strongest returns of any river in Washington and high egg to smolt survival rate of wild steelhead. Someone also mentioned steelhead flopping on rocks and killing them selves, if that was the case there would be dead steelhead all over every river. But that's not the case, ever watch fish trying to jump over falls? Ya they never hit rocks.

PEOPLE PLEASE SHOP FISHING FOR STEELHEAD, you are killing them!!!




Oh ya, the sky is not falling!!
There is no meteor coming!!
We survived 2012!(I don't know how we survived 2000)
And steelhead have survived for thousands of years!
And will continue to do so even if I do take a picture with it out of the water.

There is such bigger issues facing native steelhead it's to bad we have to usable over a @$&$ing picture.

Tight lines.

Tight lines! B K Paige
"Occupy Skagit"
Wishin I was fishin the Sauk!!!
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post #18 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 10:18 AM
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Seahawk, you may not be using words which offend, just some that need translation:

'..suggest u read bwag post'

For instance.
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post #19 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 10:41 AM
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I get that many are upset at being labelled a terrorist (not sure if it's an attempt at humour by the OP), but I feel that the bigger message is being lost here. Maybe it's just me but I really don't understand the need to take hero shots (ego or bragging rights?) of the fishes we catch. i have been fortunate enough to have been taught earlier in my fishing journey on how to

- choose the right gear to land the fish quick
- never beach a fish and to keep the fish always in 1 feet of water
- never to lift the fish out of water
- make sure that the fish is facing upstream and properly revived before letting go

To do anything else would put the fish in unnecessary harm and that is a steep price to pay for a photo.
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post #20 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 11:14 AM
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Rustybee, Maybe for the same reason that we take photos of anything, including our families. Because memory is a powerful thing. Why have pictures of our loved ones on our desks at work? to brag to others how wonderful they and you (by association) are. The cynical could think that.

Is it a type of reverse snobbery, the -I don't need to take pictures to brag about fish that I caught. In this time of social media where we can all be our own 'brand' with everything we do in life. Many feel the need to share (or it it to validate ourselves) with others on line.

On the other hand, is bragging quietly to yourself conceited, is it indeed bragging? I like to take photos of what I catch at times. No one else usually sees them apart from me.

When the legendary Thames River (UK) trout fisher of Edwardian times, A. E. Hobbs was asked: why does he set up so many of his specimens in glass fronted cases, he replied:

'So I can catch them all over again'.
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Last edited by MHC; 08-18-2016 at 11:43 AM.
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post #21 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 12:07 PM
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I'm sure most if not all of you guys know more about all things Steelhead than I do. While some may disagree in whole or part with what John McMillan has wrote about proper catch and release, I think he has established a good baseline of how we as fisherman/fisherwoman should treat the fish.

I'd argue that 10 seconds isn't needed to take a picture and it could be done in half that time. But I think the intent of what he wrote was to encompass fishing for Steelhead not only by those who use a fly but also bait and lures and not only the seasoned angler but the guy who just picked up a rod yesterday.

I think the guy is a pretty smart dude who has nothing but the best intentions for the fish and has done more research about them than probably most on this forum.

To say, if you want to stop harming the fish just quit fishing is a bit harsh. I've read about how gripping the wrist of the fish with a dry bare hand can do some serious damage, I've also read about working a fish too hard and that looking at their eyes is in part a good gauge of the immediate health of the fish one just landed. Downward looking eyes are good, deer in the headlights eyes aren't.

The point is, the more we educate ourselves (Some need it more than others, myself included) the better off we all will be. Whether gear, bait or a fly is used to catch the fish I've seen good and bad from all sides.

A few years ago I didn't understand the harm of grabbing a quick photo of the fish out of water. I don't do it anymore and honestly think the photo looks better with the fish in the water but that's just my thought. Regardless, is the fish any worse off if I adhere to what John wrote? No. Could it be if I didn't adhere to what he wrote? I think so.

Are we all guilty of doing some harm to the fish? Absolutely, if you're fishing you're harming, but we can mitigate it to a certain degree if we choose follow some guidelines, I don't think that can be disputed. However, are we doing some good by fishing for Steelhead, I think so.

Without us as anglers, the fish would have no protections, clearly we as a group are passionate about our sport which in turn fuels the fire of protecting the resource. If nobody gave a shiit, John included, these discussions and in turn education and protection for the fish wouldn't exist.

We all should be able to throw our opinion out there without getting someones vagina all sandy. It's easy to take things out of context in a forum. I bet if we all were sitting at a bar having this discussion we'd find we have more in common than not and we'd all likely have the same good intentions for the fish.

Just my thoughts.
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post #22 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 12:47 PM
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I enjoy reading these threads and always appreciate folk's opinions.
Here's my take no matter how insignificant.

Like all opinions, each is individual and like the replies here, they vary from each end of the spectrum. And like all opinions in the comment sections of Internet sites, there will be opinions that will be interpreted in different ways that the OP originally intended.

Unfortunately, like all things, we tend to react and voice our opinions when something is controversial, never when things are simple or mundane.
Had the OP titled this thread, "please keep fish in the water, " it would not get the traction it has.
So, if the intention was for shock value, then mission accomplished. We are talking about how to properly release fish. And if, not, we are still talking about how to properly release fish.

I believe that if someone wants to enjoy a sport like C&R fishing, they should at least know the basics for the specific species they are after.
That only comes from teaching beginners that make those mistakes in a positive and unconfrontational manner.
Bwag's post on McMillans take is great.
Let's pin it and do more of that.
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post #23 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 01:21 PM
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Riffle - steelhead flipping sideways attached to a line is much different from a steelhead naturally moving over rocks by gliding over them on their bellies. I have witnessed steelhead bonking their heads on waterfalls, and they've been knocked out and have died from it. Beaching a fish in my opinion is way more harmful than netting it.
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post #24 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 01:32 PM
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By all means take photos. What you don't seem to understand is that the fish does not need to be lifted it out in the air in order to do so….

Edit: Just added a pic of a friend's C&R for reference (cropped to protect the innocent ). Needless to say that he has a smile a mile wide in this picture.

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Last edited by Rustybee; 08-18-2016 at 05:42 PM.
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post #25 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 01:46 PM
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The 'terrorists' are we the people taking the fishes required habitat away. Torturing the runs into oblivion due to a thousand cuts. C&R, even when done mediocre (like the mcmillan example being held up on a pedestal), is not going to undo the habitat damage or fix anything. Sure it lets an individual fish keep on trucking with a piercing mark and less fat reserves, which overall is a good thing (the keep on trucking part), but it doesn't bring back runs or slow their decline.

I have been doing this game for almost 25 years now. Things don't always go as planned and sometimes C&R isn't pretty. Sometimes they are mortally wounded bleeding profusely. Sometimes they simply refuse to quit making for a really ugly hook removal (net or no net and cotton net bags are the last choice as they can and do scrape the slime coat right off leading to other issues). Any field sport which requires the intentional placing of a bent steel needle within millimeters of the circulatory system (puncturing leads to automatic death) and relishes the panicked flight response of the 'quarry', all against their will, pretty much sounds like a blood sport to me. A relatively tame one when it all goes right but blood sport it is.

Quite honestly I think this site and most others are nothing but an echo chamber. The number of folks on this site that intentionally or ignorantly over-play and mishandle fish is probably quite low. Meaning the message isn't going to have any impact. So to me it looks like a bully pulpit premise to begin with.
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post #26 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 02:02 PM
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There is always a chance that badly hooked fish will die. But, with proper fish handling technique, C&R is a good thing.

I caught the same brown trout twice in 2 months in the same hole... I compared photos and compared black dots pattern (it is unique for every fish), so Im pretty sure it is the same fish. It is like recycling, and this is good... Due to C&R we have sustainable resource.
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post #27 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inland View Post
The 'terrorists' are we the people taking the fishes required habitat away. Torturing the runs into oblivion due to a thousand cuts. C&R, even when done mediocre (like the mcmillan example being held up on a pedestal), is not going to undo the habitat damage or fix anything. Sure it lets an individual fish keep on trucking with a piercing mark and less fat reserves, which overall is a good thing (the keep on trucking part), but it doesn't bring back runs or slow their decline.

I have been doing this game for almost 25 years now. Things don't always go as planned and sometimes C&R isn't pretty. Sometimes they are mortally wounded bleeding profusely. Sometimes they simply refuse to quit making for a really ugly hook removal (net or no net and cotton net bags are the last choice as they can and do scrape the slime coat right off leading to other issues). Any field sport which requires the intentional placing of a bent steel needle within millimeters of the circulatory system (puncturing leads to automatic death) and relishes the panicked flight response of the 'quarry', all against their will, pretty much sounds like a blood sport to me. A relatively tame one when it all goes right but blood sport it is.

Quite honestly I think this site and most others are nothing but an echo chamber. The number of folks on this site that intentionally or ignorantly over-play and mishandle fish is probably quite low. Meaning the message isn't going to have any impact. So to me it looks like a bully pulpit premise to begin with.
I disagree in part. I'd agree that it is a blood sport. I also agree that we as humans are the "terrorists" on the fish and the rivers. As a whole we as humans do a pretty good job exploiting our resources almost to the point of no return and sometimes to that point.

But I do think that those more knowledgable than myself who have spent their lives trying to do good for the fish have an obligation to share what they know. Whether or not it's on a forum, social media or any other means doesn't matter to me, the more the merrier. Today's internet, social media and web forums are yesterday's fishing magazines and books that a generation before me used to gain knowledge and where information was shared. I don't know if today's youth has ever broke the threshold of a library door. This is the future.

I also feel that while you point out a single fish would benefit from an angler who practiced proper catch and release it won't undue all the damage done by other means. If we maintain that way of thinking we are headed for failure for sure, but what if we all adhered to the principles John laid out, that single fish could become all fish touched by our dirty hands. That'll never happen but I'll take what I can get. I'd take a guess and say that you don't handle the fish today the same way you did 25 years ago? Maybe you do, but if you don't you likely changed your ways for the good of the fish.

Protecting the fish and it's resources is an uphill battle no doubt and I can be the most negative bastard you'd ever know, but there's hope. Progress is being made. Dams on the Rogue have come down, the Klamath may come down some day but I think the finest example of turning the tide and righting a wrong to what has been done to a river environmentally is the Elwah River. If it weren't for the internet and forums many wouldn't know of the work being done.

I'm sure all are aware of the work that was done there but here's a video anyway.

After Largest Dam Removal in U.S. History, This River Is Thriving

And a read on it.

River Revives After Largest Dam Removal in U.S. History

Is speypages or the internet going to change the world of fly fishing for Steelhead? No, but it in my opinion it's a pretty good way to share information and I'd bet more people on here are learning than you think.
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post #28 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 03:17 PM
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What would really help in my neck of the woods (Ontario Great Lakes tribs) would be to outlaw the use of roe as bait.

I like to float fish ('trotting' as we called it in the UK) at times though only use artificial lures on my line. It sickens me to see fish opened up for their eggs. It must impact on the survival of fish stocks in wild populations.
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post #29 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 03:52 PM
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Inland, the topic of discussion is proper C&R. There is no doubt that there are many factors that effect the extinction of a fishery that outway the benefits of C&R if done correctly.
For the average joe, like me, the two hands on things he can do is to try to properly C&R and teach others how to, knowing that it is a blood sport and the inevitable will sometimes happen.
About this site,
I think it's wrong to assume and impose your theory that,
" The number of folks on this site that intentionally or ignorantly over-play and mishandle fish is probably quite low.",
I'm sure you have no exact facts to prove that. Between the 17000 members , the unknown amount of viewers, and the Google factor, I would argue that statement.
Try it. Google anything spey related and you will find SP in the top 5 results.

My intention here is not to argue over semantics, but to bring attention to the one thing we can do to directly help the survival of the particular fish we hook should we choose to release it.
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post #30 of 71 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 03:59 PM
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As someone has explained before, a picture is more than just a picture to show off. It's a memory frozen in time, so excuse us who would like to hold on to that memory with a photo of a fish (and a smile in the same picture) held out of the water for a few seconds.
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