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Scott Howell Skagit Casting - Defined and Simplifyed

13K views 23 replies 15 participants last post by  Rick J 
#1 ·
#9 ·
I don't get the 10 o'clock position stuff

In his otherwise clear vido, Scott keeps talking about sweeping the rod and peeling the line off the water to the 10 o'clock position. Maybe I'm getting my clock orientation mixed up, but I thought you lifted and stopped your rod at the 1 o'clock position.

What am I not getting?
 
#10 ·
In his otherwise clear vido, Scott keeps talking about sweeping the rod and peeling the line off the water to the 10 o'clock position. Maybe I'm getting my clock orientation mixed up, but I thought you lifted and stopped your rod at the 1 o'clock position.

What am I not getting?
You are looking at the clock from the other side. Just transpose the 10 or 11 o'clock terminology to 1 or 2 o'clock.

Bulkleyfly: Skagit Master II was shot in your neck of the woods. :lildevl:
 
#11 ·
Great video - Scott talks about pulling the anchor and expect he will touch on this more in future videos - one of the main reasons folks starting out that may have had some instructions from more traditional spey casters is that little kick up at the end of the D loop they tell you to do!! This can really kill a sustained anchor cast. Typically they tell your to raise the rod with both arms coming up into a little jab.

If you watch Scott's hands and arms, his right elbow does not leave his side in the sweep to D loop- this makes a very compact cast and in SM 1 as Ed points out keeping everything inside the box. I really like to stress hand arm motion in teaching casting - either single or two handed casting. It is all about proper muscle memory and if you know what your hands and arms are suppose to do and train them to do this, the rod and line will follow
 
#12 ·
He speaks a lot of rod load which in the end is very very little even with a Skagit line and "pre load" does not exist when longer, relatively lighter line is cast. Yes rod bends during the back cast but most of the bend straightens when the D-loop forms when there is a pause or better when rod is drifted (hands are raised and rod tip pushed back) and the amount of bend which is left has almost no effect to cast.

Esa
 
#13 ·
bender - think I disagree with your assessment - with the continuous load style, the rod does not unload between back (D loop formation) and forward cast. I like to equate the CM/CL type spey cast to the Belgian loop cast in overhead casting - think if you were to just swing the rod around your head in a circular motion, the rod never unloads and line is in constant tension- change this to an oval motion - ie Belgian cast and you are kind of slinging the line around and never letting up on the tension

Best,
Rick
 
#14 ·
Cm/cl

A lot of people have a hard time accepting the CM/CL concept. It goes against the grain of what we were taught when we learned T&G traditional style casting. The 180° principle, wait for the loop to come around & all that stuff. But watch some of the Skagit Jedi's, even casting cack handed, another no no. It's hard to argue with success.

Watch the long distance competition casters @ Spey-O-Rama. They kick the rod butt out & bring the rod back parallel to the water. The line should drop to water, but it does not. The rod unloads completely long before they even start the forward stroke. Another no no as we were taught. The rods the Carron Team were using few years back threw such a wide open loop you thought it would never fly. But when the rod rebounded, it pulled the lower leg of that loop up and fly it did. Incredible distances! All of these techniques go against the grain of what we have been taught & accepted as gospel. Again, it's hard to ague with success.

My background in engineering left me questioning how can that be? The contrast between those two styles of casting is like night & day. Each represents countless years of trial & error, perfecting the style. Each being developed to accomplish a different objective. Can Scott Howell chuck a dead chicken 150 ft? Of course not. But neither can the Carron team.

I could go on about those differences, but suffice to say they both work. Should you question how & why, as did I, you figure it out. :D
 
#15 ·
When line head is longer rod "unloads" when the D-loop forms. I'm afraid when rod load is so emphasized someone concentrates to it when we don't need to even think of rod load.

Actually it was very difficult to find very "good" Skagit casting searching youtube because current style is so well represented which IMHO is a shame. This video by Mike Kinney is what I did watch many many times when I began Skagit. Very smooth and beautiful style!!!

Not all his casts have a pause but those where the anchor is positioned further back do have. Its simply because the D-loop needs more time to form and there is no issue of lost rod load :) That kind of technique is essential when line head becomes longer but pause can be used when head is short too. Back cast just needs to be done using less speed. Enjoy!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipiJHAHVXVk
 
#16 · (Edited)
Skagit casting video? It's a double spey video.

All the same principles shown apply to both scandi and traditional double spey casts. Yes, if you're using a traditional, say mid-belly, your D loop will go further back.

In an effort to disparage scandi and traditional casts, he says there's no "dip" in a skagit cast. Well, there's no dip in a good scandi or traditional cast either. If there is, the caster is doing it wrong.

This is a double spey video. Correct for all styles of spey casting lines and rods.

Yes, there is a difference in all three casting styles, but they're not shown in this good double spey video.
 
#17 ·
Skagit casting video? It's a double spey video.

All the same principles shown apply to both scandi and traditional double spey casts. Yes, if you're using a traditional, say mid-belly, your D loop will go further back.
.. and the pause is essential and the rod "load" is lost. So IMO the same principle does not apply!

When long line is cast and when D-loop forms there is a pause and it can be used beneficially to perform the drift! Drifting not only to make forward casting stroke wider but drifting is a 100% method to make creeping impossible.

I think the reason CM/CL works is when line head is short but it is not essential although the line head is short!

Esa
 
#18 · (Edited)
both of you don't seem to understand sustained anchor casting.

With a long line - no question there is going to be a pause allowing the D loop to form. But what seems to be lost on you is we are taking short lines - 20' heads and you can absolutely make a cast without any pause keeping the line in constant tension. As I said - similar to a Belgian overhead cast - there is no pause between back and forward cast and that is what Scott is highlighting in his clip - whether it is a double spey (which he is demonstrating), a circle or a perry poke - he is differentiating between sustained anchor and T&G and there is an absolute difference

PS - I will point out that you can cast a skagit line without using this method and lots of folks do and incorporate a pause - not to say that is wrong - just a different style. But the style presented here does not incorporate a pause or an unloading of the rod between D loop formation and forward cast
 
#19 · (Edited)
Well, I probably shouldn't have included a mid belly, but a double spey with a scandi line is exactly the same. There is no pause, it's continuous. The only difference is that the belly is longer . . . but there's no pause. No matter what line you use, a double spey is a sustained anchor cast.

And yes, I do understand sustained anchor casting . . . depending on where and when I'm fishing I fish skagit equipment all the way up to t-17 tips chucking dead chickens, scandi lines and there are still a few rare places I fish long belly lines.

My point is, he's produced a good video about a double spey cast. If he wanted to, he could have described the subtle differences in technique with the different lines, rather than just desparaging scandi and traditional saying there's no dip in a skagit cast.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I still disagree that a double spey with a long line and a double spey with a short belly line is the same animal.

Part of the problem is calling sustained anchor casting skagit casting. I think of sustained anchor casting as a cast that has no pause once the D loop process has begun - and yes - it does not matter if the line is a skagit line or a scandi line - thy can both be cast using sustained anchor methods with no pause.

but when you go up to longer belly lines, you will likely be using a pause in there to let the longer D loop form - if you are double spey casting with a long belly line - is this a sustained anchor cast? - I would say not based on the definition of continual motion with no pause. I would differentiate between constant motion is sustained anchor and drift which can also be incorporated into long lines where perhaps you are not coming to a complete stop

The other question is can you cast any line system without utilizing true sustained anchor casting and obviously the answer is yes

Best,
Rick

PS - I can pretty easily cast T-17 tips and dead chickens using a skagit line but not utilizing true sustained anchor casting - but more straight line casting with a definite pause
 
#21 · (Edited)
If you attend a Mike Kenny demo, he talks about "Skagit casting,,,whatever the hell that is" Mike has been around the block a time or two, or three, or four. Mike "Poppy" Cummings dubbed Mike the Skagit Godfather. A lot of people talk about & demo Skagit/sustained anchor casting. Tyler "Kush" Kushner coined the term "Edjit casting" because Ed Wards style is, well just Ed! Not to detract or short anyone else's style or accomplishments, but when you combine multiple subtle differences into a one cast, as in Ed's DS, what you have is unique, unlike anyone else's. Out & around, centrifugal force, the Trebuchet CMCL. Need I say more?
 
#22 ·
I would have to agree, very well done video on the Double Spey. Rod and line length will impact the dynamics of all the casts, but a Double Spey is a Double Spey. I fish mids and my rod is in motion throughout the stroke. I don't pause, never have. The tip of the rod is always loaded or recovering. To me the true essence of two handed casting comes from learning how to cast and fish a line. Don't get me wrong, Skagit systems have a place, mass moves mass, but I would have to say the guy in the fly shop got it right. There are no short cuts when learning how to casting a fly line with either a single or double handed rod. A Skagit system might be easier, but a longer line in the hands of a good double handed caster is far more proficient.
 
#23 ·
Miasma of obfuscation

To borrow part of a favorite quote from non other than Eric Helm...

The psuedo science of Skagit casting terminology has devolved into a miasma of obfuscation. (no offense to anyone but you lost me about a page and a half ago.)

Dont worry beginners. It sounds a lot more complicated than it really is.
 
#24 ·
SkagitMiester -
No question - it does not have to be complicated but I absolutely love delving into casting intricacies and the nuances - and the fact that there are subtle differences in doing a DS. Straight path casting with either single or double handers - either overhead or spey style can be done more or less without a pause - ie rod and hand drift but there is true differences in loading sequences with the different styles and I have really tied to work on both styles - I was s straight line caster long before I got into sustained anchor or CMCL.

I love talking casting with others - just all part of an overall passion I have to be on the water which soon I will be able to do full time

Best
rick
 
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