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Question for you double taper lovers out there...

3K views 27 replies 10 participants last post by  Captcaveman 
#1 ·
I have a Redington Hydrogen 3113 I would like to fish a double taper line on. To date I have a 240 grain Rio Scandi Short that loads the rod just right, and a 305 grain Rio Trout Spey that feels a little heavy but I make it work. I have tried a DT7F that weighs 300 grains at 45' and it feels way too light. I have read other posts on various forums that say DT7 should cast well on a 7 weight spey rod... so using this logic, a DT3 should cast well on a 3 weight spey rod. I don't mean to offend if I'm wrong, but this logic seems terribly flawed. I would like to fish a DT with 45'-50' of line past the tip, or mid head (45'-50' head) line on my trout spey rod to take advantage of the mending capabilities a DT/mid head has. Anybody have a suggestion... other than Single Hand Spey (head length is too short)?
 
#2 ·
With more line out of the tip, the line gets heavier because of the fat middle section of a DT line. If you know you want to fish 45' out of the tip, perhaps get a heavier line, such as an 8 or 9 DT. PM incoming about some DT lines.

Nate
 
#4 ·
The idea of the DT line weight matching the rod's rating assumes all or most of the DT will be outside the rod tip. That creates a challenging amount of line for most casters to manage, a real trad longbelly casting experience.


For closer in work, 50' or so, take a 5 wt DT to try, and bring a sharpie with you the first time you fish it so you can strip off line and cast progressively longer lengths till you reach your happy place- then mark your hold point.


You can get a 4 or 5wt DT for a song on amazon. Cheapest line experiment ever.

Have fun!
 
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#5 ·
Thanks SpeySpaz. I have two 5 weight dt's with different front tapers at home. I'll try both of those my next time out! It may be a silly question, but should the rod feel underlined when casting a double taper? Or should I expect to experience the same type of feedback I get when casting a scandi head?
 
#9 ·
You have given another and obviously better rating for your Hydrogen as 6wt test casting different lines.

When there was only AFTM rated DT lines both single and double hand rods were rated for same DT lines. Longer DH rods vere used to cast longer length of DT out of rod so usually they were more powerful.

Now we have AFFTA and there are two different line standards. Single hand line standard is based to old AFTM but there are heavier 13wt, 14wt and 15wt weights.

Two hand line standard is OK when rating lines but it has broblems when rods are tried to rate test casting those lines. All shooting line weights should be heavier to match better to short, mid and long belly lines! I think almost next higher weight should be used? Another difficulty is too big weight difference between short, mid and long belly lines and it is more severe on lighter lines.

The table should have also 5wt, 4wt, 3wt line weights and lengths and perhaps 2wt and 1wt as well. If the same "pattern" is used 5wt shooting head would be 210gr, 4wt = 180gr, 3wt would come 160gr but perhaps 155gr would be better and 2wt = 135gr and 1wt = 120gr?

Esa
 
#10 ·
Simpler example how low end line rating does not fit with rods:

While #11 rated rod would behave quite OK when casting short 11wt <40ft 600gr head and 11wt 80ft 950gr long belly. (A <40ft 12wt 700gr would match even better!)

It is very difficult to manufacture a rod which feel OK casting short 6wt <40ft 250gr head and 6wt 80ft 600gr long belly!!!

Esa
 
#11 ·
Ok everyone, here's the results from my first attempt with the DT5F's. My local river is in flood stages right now, but I was able to find a place to cast from the bank. The lines cast were a SA Frequency, and a Rio Trout LT, with an 8' hand tied leader, 3' tippet, and a #12 spider type fly. I had about 45' of line plus leader and fly past the rod tip, and got good turnover using single spey casts. I was unable to shoot additional line with the SA Frequency, and the amount of line tip on the water during anchoring had to be monitored closely . I was able to shoot a small amount of line, loops were much tighter, and the amount of line tip on the water was less critical with the Trout LT. So my best casts made it 60' from me to the fly. Surprisingly the best casts happened when I was paying the least attention to technique. If I tried to cast with any less than 45' of line outside the rod tip, I was unable to shoot any additional line, but casting was much easier (as I expected). If I tried to cast with more than 45' of line past the rod tip, the line would run out of enough kinetic energy to turn itself over ( the line tip and leader would pile up) whether I tried to shoot line or not (I also expected this, it was just a question of when). The lift was easy with such a thin line and long rod. I used the same sweep to create the d-loop as I do with a scandi head (if the sweep was high and slow, low and fast, or on a constantly rising plane, the cast became more difficult).
My line tip had to be anchored within a rod length and directly to the side of my body and a lot of top hand had to be used on the forward stroke. I also had to lengthen my forward stroke considerably to smooth out the cast and avoid tailing loops. 45° direction changes were a little more difficult, but I did it and feel it would become easier with practice. To me, there was very little feedback from the rod when casting either of these lines. There wasn't the customary load and unload feel of a well-executed underhand (scandi) cast. It felt like I was swinging a bare rod with no line on it. I never felt the rod come alive. I made many acceptable casts, but nothing I was too excited about. After an hour of casting the elbow of my top hand arm was fatigued (probably because I started out trying to make the rod load and unload like it does with a scandi head). My rod ferrules kept loosening (this does not happen when using either of my shooting heads). So for now, the DT5F Trout LT has been the best performing non-shooting head line and I'll continue to work with it hoping further practice will produce better results. I'll try my DT7F again and see if I get better results now that I have a better idea of what technique is necessary to manage a longer line. I'll even try a DT4F (even though I doubt it will make a 60' cast due to inertia/air resistance problems). Thanks for the suggestions and reading this lengthy report. I hope it wasn't boring and this helps some other people interested in light long lines
 
#12 ·
Sounds like a good outing with it, I like the way you paid attention to things.
As you continue to fiddle you might find a few things like:

A DT casting cycle needs a more energetic sweep to really energize the loop and load the rod...
The longer the line, the more critical anchoring becomes...
Too much top hand is compensating for a weakness earlier in the cycle, but as the line gets longer more top hand travel is often required to smooth timing out...
Creep with a DT will wreck your cast and your back/shoulders...
DTs don't like to be 'hit' with abrupt power application, they like smooth acceleration to a hard stop...


… things like that. The positive feeling of loading that you get with other styles of line can make it feel like you're 'air casting' at first, so learn to feel your way into the rod. You'll likely find as I did that you need both hands to move forward at the beginning of the forward cast. Remember to bring that sweep way back and keep your hands high. A long, straight straight tip path is important with DT's.

Don't just give the line a few tries, you might have to take it out many times to begin to really feel it

After you get used to casting a DT, casting shooting heads will be easy and effortless. Enjoy the journey. Remember, it's never the line's fault.:saevilw:

https://www.speypages.com/speyclave/54-tackle/186889-spazs-excellent-dt-adventure.html
Watch Derek Brown work it;
 
#14 ·
I would like to fish a double taper line. Anybody have a suggestion?
hi,
double taper lines suck.
that being said, they will teach you how to execute a proper spey cast!
any 90' trout DT line will work in the proper weight range. i found that 2-3 line weights greater than the rod rating will work.
line manufacturer really doesn't matter. old school cortland 333 works well enough. you can probably find new old stock if you look around.
gary
 
#15 ·
I will keep at it Speyspaz... often the things that are most frustrating are the things that are most rewarding when finally done right. I did try to energize my d-loop with a faster sweep, but that often ended up with a blown anchor. Do you think I should try a slightly longer leader than 8' to compensate? After watching the video, I also realize that my initial lifts weren't purely vertical. I'm assuming almost simultaneously lifting and sweeping (like I tend to do with a scandi head) would de-energize my d-loop making more top hand power necessary? That Mr. Brown has some chops!
 
#20 ·
Go as long as you like, I go up to 15' with small flies- leaders are such an individual thing. You might find shorter leaders pile up less often on turnover, but do demand good anchor control.
You'll find that once your lift, sweep and transition are all in order that the forward cast will be a breeze, unless there's a wrong breeze that is.
You're already experiencing the line telling you she wants more of you, and you're searching for weak spots in your form. That's good, keep playing with it and learning. It's only hard at first.
 
#16 ·
I respectfully disagree with you voodoofly! I love dt lines on my single hand rods! I agree with the statement that manufacturer doesn't matter, but taper does. And certain tapers are only available through certain manufacturers. I don't have a dt6f yet, but will be picking one up shortly to try out. Thanks for the input!
 
#17 ·
Well good on you if you can tell the difference - I cant. But I’m in no way a lover of them and I can imagine that others might be able to detect the differences. I feel like a DT line is by definition just a level line with a short front and (irrelevant until you flip one) back taper to make a smoother transition to the stuff on the front. The tapers do vary but at the lenght you use them at the tapered part should be a rather small fraction of the whole and contribute little to the ease castibility - other than a bit of turnover difference. Conventional wisdom would say that the taper at the back and middle part of the line you are casting would determine most of the ease of casting issues. I’d be glad to learn better from people with a lot more experience with them, but I think this is probably what he was pointing at.
 
#18 ·
When most folks think of DT lines, they're thinking of simple traditional level lines with only 10' of forward taper (or 15' in the case of a salmon DT line). In those lines, the taper variation makes little difference, and I agree with Gary that these mostly level lines suck as two-hand lines (read: distance) beyond developing casting technique.

However, other DT lines have longer, more complex tapers, and they cast / fish quite well. For example, the RIO DT lines have nearly 30' of forward taper, and several "spey" DT lines (old Cortland speys, CND GPS) have even longer compound tapers. These compound-taper DTs are not nearly are cruel as traditional "level" DT lines.
 
#19 ·
Seems a bit like Rio and the other companies are cheating a bit in those cases. Those sound a lot like a regular spey lines with a “lazy rear taper”. :chuckle:

Still, I suppose between any two tapers there has in theory to be one that interpolates between them. So are those lines for the traditionalists that want to cheat, or the modern guys that want to claim they are going traditional?
 
#23 ·
Yes I am asking about spey casting a DT on a 2H rod. Mainly quartering down stream casts.

The reason I love DT lines on single hand rods is:
1-They allow me to carry as much line (during overhead casting) as I am personally able, in the air, for long casts.
2- Certain DT tapers spey cast well when overhead casting isn't an option. When single hand spey casting, using hauls to energize both the d-loop and the forward stroke, some distance is possible.
3- They mend well at any distance, whether fishing dry flies, wets, or small streamers, and allow me to control the presentation better than a standard (30' head) WF line.

I'm interested in DT line (or a 45'+ head WF) on a 2H rod because:
1- Two handed rods are fun and light line weight 11'ish ones are appropriate for some of the waters I fish, and the common size of fish found here.
2- Longer rods allow me to fish parts of creeks (our creeks here would be called rivers in other parts of the US) that I cannot reach by wading, or fishing from the bank due to posted ground.
3- DT (or long headed WF) can be good fishing tools.

I was hoping by combining the long rod with a DT (or long head WF) line, that I could increase the amount of water I can fish (increase distance from me to the fly), and still have the control of the fly that I am accustomed to like when I fish DT lines on single handers.

I was also hoping that casting my trout spey rod with a DT line (or long head WF line) would be easy. According to some on this forum, it can be easy, as long as I practice and keep developing my skill.

I did realize before starting this discussion, that at some point my rod length, and line weight/head length/taper choice was going to have a limit (when repeated casting became too strenuous, and when the line would no longer turn itself over). I want to know where those limits are, then decide where or if the rod/line combination fits my fishing.

I've only been using two handed rods for 3 years or so. I'm still trying to find out what my preferred warm weather/low water line system is, so I'm asking questions here and trying everything I can until I find "the one".
 
#24 ·
Reporting back in on my findings after a couple weeks...
During the past couple weeks I've tried several DT lines from 4wt-8wt. The best performance comes from the 5wt Rio Trout LT DT. I still have been unable to improve much on my first experience with this line however. It still requires too much effort to make an acceptable (not good, just acceptable) cast.
I've tried energizing the sweep, but 19 out of 20 casts, the anchor skipped. I played with leader length to alleviate this problem, but when the blown/skipped anchor is no longer a problem, leader turnover is.
The worst part about this experiment is, it messed with my muscle memory. I switched back over to a scandi short and my casts were a train wreck. It took me an hour to get my scandi cast back. I felt like a beginner all over again.
So my findings are: Light SH rods- DT is awesome. Light DH rods- DT sucks. I know some of you guys will disagree, and that's cool. You guys are better casters than me.
I will not be using any DT line on the Redington Hydrogen 3113 with any regularity. I believe I'll be better off with a Rio SHS line or possibly even a custom scandi long (like an Aero Head, but downsized for this rod).
Thank you all for your input. If I learn anything else on this subject, I'll report back in.
 
#25 ·
Another update on the Redington Hydrogen Trout Spey 3113 with the Rio Trout LT dt5f...

Since my last post on this subject, I feel we (the combo and I) are finally getting along. Almost every outing I spend a little time working with this rod/line combo. I can now cast about 50' of line past the rod tip, 9' of leader/tippet, and a pair of modestly sized wet flies or a single small caddis dry fly. My anchor isn't skipping as often as it was before, even with the shorter leader and tippet, which I attribute to learning to smooth out my power application.

I believe this is the limit though because this is when leader turn over gets touchy and the ability to deal with a breeze is compromised. Single spey casts only at 50' (so far), nothing else as there isn't enough energy produced by the rod (or it dissipates too quickly from such a light line) to complete any other cast. The single speys are relatively comfortable, but with such a short rod (remember, it's only 11'-3"!!!) , every part of the cast needs to be dead on, and my strokes have to be lengthened to the maximum for a nice cast. Mending at this length is also hit or miss. As you would expect I won't fish this very often at the 50' mark because of its lack of versatility.

However, I will use this at shorter ranges during low water when stealth is important. With 40' or less out, I've learned to just flick casts off the rod tip with zero effort, and mending is awesome. This amount of line out also allows me to use almost any cast I want to achieve direction changes.

I do realize that I'm fishing at similar distance as I would with a scandi head, but presentations are much more delicate with this line. The way this line and a scandi head swings and mends are different too... the scandi tends to dig in the water more while the Trout LT tends to ride on top, which a affects swings and mends as you would expect.

I also realize that the same things can be accomplished with the Trout LT on a standard 9' single hander, but the extra 2' of rod length with the Hydrogen Trout Spey makes mending easier for me.

In short it's a nice combo for fishing windless days over spooky fish when I want to dead drift, swing, or skate #10 or smaller unweighted flies. Upstream dry fly presentations with this combo aren't ideal, but they're not a waste of time either.
 
#26 ·
Sounds like you are getting what you need from your experiment, casting DTs is good for ya!
Like Loc Vetter says, "Spey casting- hope and humiliation, good for the soul".

Modern lines make it so easy to cheat that we can easily forget what truly righteous casting mechanics look like. I usually get a DT out once or twice a year just for the humbling, haha.

But in winter, when shooting heads have iced your guides, casting a DT might be the most viable way to fish. Tip: you can take a DT, cut one taper off, and use the cut end for sinktips. Want a floater? flip end for end.:wink2:

I guess by now you're figured out why all the old school DT guys used 15'+ rods.
 
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#27 ·
When I started out with Double handed rods, & learned to Speycast some 30+ years ago, DT lines were all we had available so that's what we used in floating, sink tip & full sinking formats (most sink tips were absolute swines to speycast, & when intermediates came out they were greatfully received for fishing below the surface but not too deep).

I believe learning with a DT line made you a better caster, but it was a much longer learning curve. It's possible to teach a reasonably mobile & coordinated beginner to cast sufficiently well to cover a reasonable distance (sufficient to catch fish) in a morning with a Skagit outfit, a bit longer with a Scandi set-up & longer again with a mid belly Spey line; but a DT line takes significantly longer to become even semi proficient with as you simply don't feel the instant rod loading you experience with short but heavy for length style shooting head format lines.

Remembering back, my observations are that it's much easier to cast DT lines well with a longer rod, i.e. 15 feet or longer, & that rod should have the appropriate action with a stiffer tip & a relatively full flexing action which will bend right down into the handle (but I don't mean a slow or sloppy rod, it can still recover quickly, but needs to flex deeply under load). So something along the lines of a B&W Powerlite Speycaster, CND (I have an old CND Expert 14 footer which is a good rod for longer belly Spey lines or DT lines), some of the CTS blanks or similar actioned rods. Soft tip rods which only flex in the top 2/3rds in tended for Scandi heads aren't ideal with DT lines & really struggle when you are trying to dig out a deeply sunk full sinking DT line.

You need to be able to lift and hold a large energised loop in the air because a DT simply won't shoot line as far as a head or extended WF type Speyline with their' much thinner running lines; so to achieve distance you have to work with more line out & lifting this requires a rod with sufficient back-bone + more effort on the part of the caster than fishing with a short head line format does. It is vital to put the effort into the lift & back swing so the loop is held up in the air with only the tip of the line/ leader in contact with the water, then the forward cast can be executed with much less effort as the rod is already partially loaded before the forward cast is executed. If you let the loop lose tension & the lower leg of the loop fall onto the water then no amount of grunting & trying to over power the rod will recover the situation & turn it into a nice neat & straight cast.

Thinking back to then, I was in my late 20's when I started out with big rods & DT lines, I would fish from dawn to dusk with them for a full week & feel fine. That was then, I'm turning 60 on my next birthday & when I go away for a week's fishing now it's a more gently paced week & I'm really glad that I can rig up a 13 or 14 footer with 9/10 weight heads & cover the river because I simply don't think I could manage a full week with the 16 footers & 11/12 weight DT lines - at least not if I wanted to enjoy the week anyway.

But just now & again, it's fun to dig them out & have a couple of hours with the old kit; & then it's equally nice to put it away again & pick up the NRX & a shooting head! (Hopefully before I pulled a muscle waving one of the old brute sticks around).

But just remember, a rod designed for shooting heads won't make the best out of a DT line, & vice-versa; and some rods are easy to cast with (with a full floating line anyway) but just run out of steam at about 80 feet range - so if you are struggling with a DT line it may be worth trying the line on some other rods designed for long head/ DT lines as you may have reached the limits of a particular rods performance. If so then trying to push it harder won't help. The slower & softer rods can be easier to learn on, but once you have reached the edge of their performance limits then the only way to progress further is to up scale the rod to one which can lift & carry more line in the air.

My experience with light DT lines was that they were very hard to speycast in any appreciable wind, if the loop was blown out of shape they just lacked the mass to break the surface tension & achieve turn over once you had more than about 60 feet out, but on a calm day they gave a lovely presentation.

Regards, Tyke.
 
#28 ·
Thanks for the input and encouragement guys. It was a fun experiment! I feel I have reached the comfortable limit with a DT due to the rod's length and action (not enough length or tip strength to carry more line). It's defintely useful for fishing soft hackles though.

Now I "need" to find a DT to try on my Beulah Platinum 6126! Any tips on what weight of DT I should be looking for to match a 12.5' 6wt? Maybe an 8 or 9? What do you guys think the comfortable limit would be for this one?
 
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