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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 02:43 PM Thread Starter
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hello and advice appreciated

Been reading the site for several years but this is my first post, hello everyone!
I bought a used Deer Creek 7/8 13' rod and the seller included a Rio 460 grain 37' AFS 7/8 head. This line seems to cast just fine with my intermediate abilities but I have questions about it's use as a fishing tool. I am not able to fish often but have used med-sink poly leaders on this head as well as a mono leader.

Is this line considered a scandi or some type of hybrid? Can it be used with heavier tips and water borne casts or is it designed as strictly a floater?

When practicing basic casts like the single spey, I assume a head like this means far less line to deal with than a mid-belly line.
Most of the SS videos fail to mention whether the caster is using a head or full line. Should I be practicing touch and go stuff with it or are there bad habit consequences related to heads?

Advice appreciated!
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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 03:25 PM
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Personally I found the AFS a bit light for size. I went up a line size for mine and it works better "for me". It's a bit of a combo scandi/short belly. I find, again "for me" it's best suited for single spey/touch and go type casts. Not to say that you couldn't snap T or other but it's not what I do mostly. It is a good casting line and I think there was a cut version to use with tips if I remember. Polys likely work fine as well but not sure how effective.

Dan
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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-17-2020, 04:46 PM
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"Back in the day" Simon Gawsworth had a chart on the Rio website matching Rio fly lines & heads to various rods. The chart had A & B ratings. The A rating being for more experienced casters, while the B rating recommended one line size heavier for less experienced casters. This pretty much corresponds to what eriefisher was saying. Knowing Simon though, he would have probably recommended a 6/7 AFS on that rod, so you should be OK with the 7/8. Just don't expect it to turn over more than a 58 gr poly leader. The tip tapers down too fine. I wouldn't recommend cutting the tip back until you gain more experience & know what you're doing. When you think you are ready, there is an excellent book on the subject. How to Design & Build Fly Lines by Al Buhr. $20 @ better fly shops or direct from Al.

Coupled to a tapered leader of 1X rod length, or a bit longer, the AFS was a nice casting Scandi head. Just don't expect nice graceful turnovers with big weighted flies. It was not designed for that. Recommend studying The Scandinavian Spey Cast DVD by Henrik Mortensen. Pay particular attention to how he shifts body weight on the single spey cast, very effective technique! He once demonstrated that at the Sandy Clave. Using very little arm movement he was able to easily make amazing casts, tight loops, line speed, & distance.

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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-18-2020, 11:28 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys, great info. I'm a long way from being able to cast a mid-belly (50'?) and will focus on casting and anchor placement with this head for the near future.
When the time comes to advance to a more challenging line for this rod, can you suggest a line to graduate to?
With the fishing opportunities I have, I won't be doing much Skagit work but does a line that offers scandi monos and delivers somewhat heavier tips exist?
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-18-2020, 02:39 PM
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It is definitely a (longish) species of scandi. But it is the right length that you should feel very comfortable doing all 4 casts. “Scandi” lines offer a limited ability to turn over denser tips. Once you start modifying a scandi to do so (you can cut back the front of the line for example) it is no longer a “real” scandi IMO, but if it it works. Because, you know, at some point you do have to stop casting and fish!

If you want to “level up” I’d suggest you try a Beulah Aero head. I would go for the 510 gr one on that rod first. Then when you want to level up one more time try out a vector ballistic. Those two are a shortish short-belly, and a real (i.e. conventional lengh) short belly respectively.

By “heavier” tips do you just mean you want to use greater sink rates?

Good luck

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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 01:33 PM Thread Starter
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Botsari,

Yes, deeper sink rates to about 80 grains (10' T-8)
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 01:51 PM
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If this 13 foot long Deer Creek is rated as a 7/8 rod, why are folks matching lines that seem more appropriate for a 6/7 or light 7 weight rod?

°

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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfbob11# View Post
Botsari,

Yes, deeper sink rates to about 80 grains (10' T-8)
Then you can get that with an S8 Rio Replacement tip 8wt (85 gr at 10’). Those are the same sink rate as t11. There are also s6 ones in the same set that are the equivalent sink rate of T8. The point here is that it is not total weight so much as the linear density that is more important for the casting. You may prefer the 7wt set (75 grains at 10’). For that set the s8 ones are either hard to find or don’t exist, but there are still s6 ones that are the equivalent sink rate of T8, so lots of options. You can test them out one tip at a time - no need to buy a whole set. Each sink tip in a set will have the SAME linear density and hence total weight for a given length.

Another tip is that (you can try it out for yourself) to get even deeper you can use a longer tip with the same linear density (grains/foot). They will be overall heavier, but will still turn over. The Rio replacement tips come in 15’ versions and you can use them as is an they WILL cast, or as many of us do cut them back to 12-13’ to make them a little more manageable.

The take home message is the following: if you are using the t-stuff where all the tips have the SAME volumetric density (weight per unit volume) then yes, getting more sink rate requires more linear density (gr/ft), but it is not the linear density alone that determines the sink rate. For more delicate lines you have to keep the gr/ft down or the tip of the line will not carry the tip very well. This is why people who like to use tips with more delicately tapered lines tend to use compensated tips like the Rio replacement tips. So I’d suggest what you want to try next is a set of 7wt or 8wt Rio replacement tips. They will all have the same weight but different sink rates.

There are of course other options, not the least being steelhead style polyleaders. But the replacement tips are more durable and have a bunch of attractive qualities. Airflo makes some compensated (same weight, different sink rate) tips as well that have more of a taper, but the Rio tips that come in at least 4wt to 10 wt currently do definitely have the most gradations to choose from.

The only “downside” is that these don’t come in faster than 8ips, probably because they would get too thin to manufacture. But 8ips (again approx. equivalent in sink rate to t11) and up to 15’ covers the vast majority of fishing situations. There are some folks that have well-argued the point on SP that if you NEED more than that you should probably fish somewhere else. At any rate when you shift even further up in sink rate (like t14 equivalent sink rate and greater) you will likely NEED to start using a skagit head. Yeah, I know, understatement of the week.

Hope this helps to get a little better oriented with/respect to the possibilities and limitations.

“Gravity is a harsh mistress!”, The Tick

Last edited by Botsari; 01-21-2020 at 02:49 PM.
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENSO View Post
If this 13 foot long Deer Creek is rated as a 7/8 rod, why are folks matching lines that seem more appropriate for a 6/7 or light 7 weight rod?
My 7/8 13.5’ MKS is the elder brother (second cousin?) to his rod, and I would definitely prefer 500-530 in something scandi-ish on on that. But other people have said they like lighter, and people have seemed to report on here over the years that the Deer Creek “equivalents” run a bit lighter than the MKS versions, so maybe not totally crazy. If it works for the individual then it works. It is a deep flexing rod so depending on the individuals prior experiences they may be trying to “tame” it, like taming a Death Star by over-lining it. But basically I agree with you.

“Gravity is a harsh mistress!”, The Tick
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