"Mid" belly line for Redington Hydrogen 3113 - Page 4 - Spey Pages
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post #46 of 55 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 09:28 PM Thread Starter
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Hi kdt, so your 6wt (230 grain) Rio Single Hand Spey line feels too light? Have you tried a 7wt one? My next question would be if the Rio SHS line with it's 33' head should be considered a "belly" line when paired with an 11'-3" rod? I've read that a "short belly" line's grain weight should be close to the skagit head grain weight for the same rod. If you would call the SHS a "short belly" line, maybe the 7wt (260 grain) would better match the 250-275 Skagit head rating of this particular rod.
On another note, I have no experience with anything longer than a 6/7 44' aerohead on my 11' 6wt switch. I just bought it recently and so far I love it... easy casting but still long enough to cut down on stripping. If they made one light enough for this 3wt, I would buy one. I've been directed to call Steve Godshall by other SP members, but I have been holding off until I'm sure I know exactly what I want... then he can tell me whether it's possible or not in such a light line weight.

-Sean
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post #47 of 55 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Captcaveman View Post
Hi kdt, so your 6wt (230 grain) Rio Single Hand Spey line feels too light? Have you tried a 7wt one? My next question would be if the Rio SHS line with it's 33' head should be considered a "belly" line when paired with an 11'-3" rod? I've read that a "short belly" line's grain weight should be close to the skagit head grain weight for the same rod. If you would call the SHS a "short belly" line, maybe the 7wt (260 grain) would better match the 250-275 Skagit head rating of this particular rod.
On another note, I have no experience with anything longer than a 6/7 44' aerohead on my 11' 6wt switch. I just bought it recently and so far I love it... easy casting but still long enough to cut down on stripping. If they made one light enough for this 3wt, I would buy one. I've been directed to call Steve Godshall by other SP members, but I have been holdin.g off until I'm sure I know exactly what I want... then he can tell me whether it's possible or not in such a light line weight.
I would not go as far as to say the 6wt 230 is too light on the 3wt as it works well with small flies and casts nicely even in slightly windy conditions. It is not a line you would want to cast any larger /heavier flies with. I have not tried the 7wt though would be very interested to give it a go. The Rio SHS has its own feel on the 3wt Hydrogen and not the same as a short belly on a longer rod. I would not make a generalization that the short belly lines weight should be close to a Skagit as each line and rod have their own characteristics and some experimenting is needed to find the weight that fits for you. Its true longer lines tend to need more overall weight as the weight is spread out over a greater distance. For me the shorter a Skagit is the lighter it should be as the weight is more concentrated. Generally I like slightly underweight lines (than the manufactures recommendations) for a floater and surface flies.

The only Aerohead I have is a 10/11 and I use it occasionally with my 15' CND BVGT and it is 810 grains which is slightly heavy for me but it works great. My 12'8" 6wt Spey 5/6/7 CND BVGT likes a 300grain Skagit (Nextcast Coastal with 12 to 15ft tips) and 430 grains for a Nextcast 45 Fall Favorite. The 6/7 Aerohead is I believe 450 grains. Generally a Switch and Spey are around one line weight difference so your Aerohead might be a bit heavy for my taste. Everyone has a different stroke and have to find the magic in line to rod for themselves. . I'm with you on a longer line to reduce stripping and better mending. My guess is something around 40' 270 grains might work nicely with the 3wt Hydrogen. It would be great if the line could handle a sinking poly tip.

I would give Steve a call. He is very approachable and full of experience. He will point you in the right direction but to make it a perfect fit you will have to experiment. Rods, Lines and fish are fickle things...
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post #48 of 55 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 12:53 PM
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That sounds about right for that rod. If you want to cast larger flies with a 3 wt you are talking about a specialty line that will be more clunky, not a line that is designed as a modest tweak to a delicate presentation taper, like the SH Spey line. If you use the ballpark rule of upping the wt of single hand rated lines approximately 2 on switch lenght rods and 3 on spey length rods (when using them as originally intended, e.g. overhead lines cast overhead on the spey-rated rods) then you will get in the SHSpey line case a line that is maybe a tad bit heavier than you normally would like for overhead casting, and possibly on the light side for spey casting. That is about where they intended for that line as its forte is doing both on the same rod. I’d say 6 and 7wt will be the ones you would try if just intended to do spey casts. It really comes down to personal taste and the rod.

You can go by length ratios (line to rod) but I really think talking about type of “belly” classifications relative to a short 3wt is misuse of the nomenclature. It kind of works in the correct spirit with long rods that are a little lighter than traditional - say a 14’ 7wt, but even then it starts to strain the original use a bit. And for 6wt it is hard even to find genuine “short belly” length lines, as I discovered during my recent 6wt long rod long line kick. I have have at least one very experienced friend that insists that the short/mid/long belly classification should only be applied to the actual length of the line, not some kind of ratio. But while I don’t usually have a knee-jerk reactionary objection to widening the use of terms when it is useful, I kind of think talking about “belly type” in the same sentence as a 3wt switch rod if not a bit silly, then a least not very useful.

Of course I agree with ktd, I think Steve is the guy who’s ruling on what can be done at the lightweight limit I’d accept as gospel. As I mentioned above, finding a true short belly lenght spey line for a 14-15’ 7wt is not terribly easy, and for a 6wt it is nearly impossible even if you look at lines that have been marketed over the past 10 or more years, not just ones made currently. Short of adapting (and possibly doctoring) single hand lines to your application steve will certainly be the only source I know of for a line like you are talking about, or close to it.

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Last edited by Botsari; 06-08-2019 at 01:28 PM.
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post #49 of 55 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 12:58 AM
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Barrio Fly Lines come out of Scotland at a very affordable price with free world-wide shipping. Google it and take a look at some of the very innovative tapers Mike Barrio is producing. I own a number of his lines and think they are among the best I've ever used. The GT90 series may come closest to what you are looking for. Also, his Switch Lines may be worth a try. At the price, you can afford a couple of them to work with. The Switch line sells for 39 pounds which is around $50. Typically the lines arrive in 7 to 10 days.

Gene
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post #50 of 55 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 10:44 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input guys. I did use the term "short belly" in relation to the Rio SHS line specifically because of the rod/line length ratio. The reason I brought up my recent experience with the Beulah Aerohead is... Looking at both manufacturer's taper diagrams, the two lines look similar in taper, and Beulah if I remember correctly, calls the Aerohead a mid belly shooting head that is similar to a scandi line taper. I was trying to find out if the two lines require a similar casting stroke. I use A LOT of underhand with all of my lines on both of my TH rods. I am very comfortable with my underhand dominated casting style. When changing from a scandi short to an aerohead on my 6wt switch rod, making adjustment to my sweep to handle the extra head length of the aerohead wasn't a problem for me. Every other part of my cast remained the same. I was hoping to hear that casting the Rio SHS would give the same experience. The 230gr, 33' SHS sounds ok, but I really like the sound of a 40', 270 grain line on the 3wt... if it would underhand cast well. I don't want to drastically change my casting style and mess up my muscle memory.

Fly size isn't an issue here, I only had #16-#10 wets, #16-#12 dries and maybe the occasional #8 or #6 unweighted classic trout streamer or in mind. I already have a line system to handle the bigger/ heavier/deeper stuff.

I'm still learning here guys, be patient with me. I do not have access to any spey gear in my area unless I buy it. The guys I meet on the water almost always comment on how big my 3wt appears to them. I have never met anyone else fishing this way. Everything I learn about TH tackle is either through the internet or personal experience. I do realize I have put myself at a disadvantage (in line choices) by buying a 3wt switch rod, but the rod fits the majority of my trout water and fish size here in Central Pennsylvania. My interest in a longer line for the 3wt is because there are at least 3 larger trout streams/rivers within two hours drive of my home, stripping sucks, and long lines look cool! I have already made enough costly mistakes buying spey equipment, and want to make sure my next line purchase for this 3wt will meet my expectations.

My first costly spey mistake was impulse buying a 6wt switch rod as my first TH rod. It's a St Croix Imperial. It was cheap and now I know, not highly thought of in the spey world. Once I learned how, it casts and fishes fine for me. The action suits me just fine. The handle shape does leave A LOT to be desired though... it feels like gripping a baseball bat. I run a 390gr scandi short, a 425gr skagit, and now the 450gr aerohead on it. I had planned, and do, fish it for smallmouth bass, but its overkill (fish handling ability) for the vast majority of the bass caught here. I'm still going to fish it until its broke however. Had I done proper research and talked to you guys here at SP before buying, I probably would have ended up with a 13'+ 4wt or possibly a light 5wt for my bass rod. The bass water here is BIG... The Susquehanna near me is literally a mile wide! The typical fish I catch run 12"-18". I do catch a few 20"+ a year though.

Thanks again guys! You're all a huge help!

-Sean
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post #51 of 55 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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I'll be looking into Barrio today glcaddis! Thanks for the suggestion!

-Sean
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post #52 of 55 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 11:44 AM
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Capt, Actually many people would call most of the aeroheads shortlist SHORT bellies. The longest, heaviest one just breaks into the traditional SHORT belly length, and that one by ratio on a 12’ rod as I make it just makes it to “mid belly” length - but I don’t think I would use that one on such a short rod. Bruce Berry put in the language of “modern mid belly” in the description. He has said on here that this was because people nowadays are using shorter rods, but on a spey length rod, even by ratio, most of these lines would not really qualify as a traditional mid-belly length line, and the lightest of these is verging on a longish scandi on any spey length rod. I love these lines and have all the weights, but NOT mid-belly length by any traditional measure.

As I said previously I’m not against using old terms in a modified, new way. But at the same time I’m not willing to admit that the old classifications suddenly are meaningless. The problems come when the words loose their meaning and people have difficulty communicating, so it is not mere semantics. I know some companies like rio have products that they call short, mid, long HEAD. I don’t think these should be confused with the traditional “belly” definitions. Maybe it doesn’t matter, but things have broken down to such a degree that some people on here have used “long belly” to refer to “any line longer than a short scandi”. Recall that the traditional classification would be circa 80’ and longer, with mid bellies being 70’-80’.

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post #53 of 55 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 12:19 PM
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The 230gr, 33' SHS sounds ok, but I really like the sound of a 40', 270 grain line on the 3wt... if it would underhand cast well. I don't want to drastically change my casting style and mess up my muscle memory.
Have you lengthened the mono leader to 15ft? Or 20ft? It makes line longer without increasing head weight but it can improve Spey cast efficiency when back cast room allows a wider D-loop and there comes more line mass to be accelerated.

You can easily make line longer and increase some weight adding thin line to the tip. Trout WF and DT have two tapers which can be used. To increase line weight without making it much longer adding a heavy section to the rear is needed and there Skagit bellys can be used. Both improves Spey efficiency which moves towards an overhead cast but line can be longer when it is Spey cast.

Line manufacturing machines can not produce as good taper profiles which can be made joining pieces. I just bought nine Airflo Compact Skagits which I use to add line mass. Their other end has about 8ft taper which thins quite much and other end has moderate 4ft taper. Usually my Spey line heads have three or four different sections.

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post #54 of 55 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 01:25 PM
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I'll second the Barrio lines. The SLX, Switch and Spey lines are very nice. They are an integrated Scandi, very easy casting. I like to call them "Ambush Longs". I use the SLX on my micro speys. As far as a longer line on a light rod, I believe you run into a problem with wind. Even the slightest upstream breeze can really be a nuisance . In theory they should work but from practical stand point I believe you limit out somewhere around 30 - 40 feet, depending upon rod weight and line size. The Barrio's are all about 33' head length. The "Barrio's" are what I call my dry lines for my micro speys, coupled with 10' floating trout poly leader an 5' of tippet Lightest rod I use is an Anglers Roost 11' 2/3 single hand rating.
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post #55 of 55 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
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Botsari, I have no intention of misusing terminology, it was purely ignorance on my part. I agree, misusing the terminology only makes clear communication more difficult. Have you casted traditional "belly" lines? I have not. Does your technique differ when switching between a traditional line and an Aerohead? The more we discuss this, I get the impression that I'm mistaken about what a traditional "belly" line's taper actually looks like. I assumed it was just an oversized WF with an extremely long front taper? Am I wrong? I've never seen one, much less fished one, first hand. Educate me please!

Yes & no Esa. I have been using 15' mono leader (if you include the tippet) with a 27' 240 grain scandi, but have not gone any longer. Previously I was using 11', but as soon as I went to 15' the casting was much easier. I rarely have to pay attention to my anchor anymore, thus the forward cast is more predictable (I'm much more accurate with fly placement now). I will try going to 20' of mono leader. I will also try adding a light skagit head (I own 150 & 175 OPST's) to the rear of my scandi short. If neither of those suggestions work well, I'll try looping an appropriate diameter 5'-15' floating fly line section onto the front of my scandi short and adjust the leader as needed. We'll see what happens! Good suggestions!

Rickbjr, the SLX taper looks good. Does the turnover get clunky when using a floating polyleader? Does the line/polyleader combo disturb the water much upon splashdown? I understand the wind being a problem with light lines... I fish glass 3wt and 4wt SHers on small creeks for tiny trout. The intended application for this line would be calm days, wide, but low water, small flies, for spooky trout.

Thanks guys!!!

-Sean
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