"Mid" belly line for Redington Hydrogen 3113 - Page 3 - Spey Pages
 13Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #31 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Captcaveman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 62
Hey botsari! If you couldn't already tell, I'm relatively new to the 2 handed game. I've only been fishing them for 3 years or so. My ability has come a long way since my first feeble skagit cast attempt, but I still have alot to learn yet. This particular rod (Hydrogen 3113) has only been with me a few weeks, so I'm not quite ready to splurge on another outfit yet. I'm still figuring out what this rod (with me behind the wheel) is capable of. You are definitely right about rod length. I have casted a 13' 7 weight before, and the longer rod length did significantly increase control.

-Sean
Captcaveman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 02:45 PM
Registered User
 
Botsari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,763
It is axiomatic that the longer the rod, the longer the leverage and the better the control over the presentation. Most people will eventually notice and appreciate the difference once they fish enough with a longer rod and learn how to use it as a presentation tool. I know for myself for the first year off two I was too focused on better and longer casting to pay attention. But once I felt completely up to the task everywhere with the casting part I spent most of the time on the water really focused on the fishing part. That is where people are likely to start to get it. Before that in my experience most people just think a longer rod is only for longer casts or bigger rivers.

But whether or not this additional control is necessary or desired in any particular senario is to a certain degree a matter of taste.
fisshman26 and Cowboy Tom like this.

“Gravity is a harsh mistress!”, The Tick
Botsari is offline  
post #33 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 06:55 PM
Registered User
 
coalbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 104
A general starting point for using SH lines on TH is to go up three weights. So, if you're using a 3WT TH rod, you would start with a 6WT SH line.

I don't know which rods you're using, but check the makers recommended grain windows. I know for two of my 3WTs they recommend a scandi head of 210-240gn.

Airflo River & Stream 6WT line is about 225gn.
Airflo Sixth Sense Float WF4/5F line is about 220gn.

All we can provide you is a starting point; all these different lines and rods pairings are totally subjective. Just pick one and experiment, enjoy the journey.

"Take care of the fish, and the fishing will take care of itself." — Art Neumann
coalbe is offline  
 
post #34 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 08:58 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Captcaveman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 62
Hi coalbe. I am aware of the 3 bump rule. I was unsure if this was intended only for standard length head (30'ish) WF lines, or any length head WF line because as far as I know, all SH lines are rated for line class by grain weight at the first 30'. So as a 2H caster, wouldn't you count the weight of the entire head... say... a 45' long head? That is if you intend to cast with the entire 45' head past the rod tip? This does not even take into account the weight distribution within the entire head... like a "rear loaded compound taper" (this is where it gets really funky).

Sorry man, these thoughts are all a part of me enjoying the journey. All this stuff is going through my head when I'm looking for a fly line. I actually have a theory about a better way to weigh spey lines and lessen the margin for error when selecting the proper weight line for a given rod. If you want to go down a rabbit hole, ask me about it sometime.

I should probably just shut up and go earn some money to spend on more lines!

-Sean
Captcaveman is offline  
post #35 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 09:10 PM
Registered User
 
fyshhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: american river
Posts: 1,010
I had Steve (SGS) cut up a SA XLT 5wt for my ACR 1172. It came out to be 255 grains @ 49’.
fyshhead is offline  
post #36 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 10:22 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Captcaveman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 62
Ard, you state that you prefer a 37' head on an 11.5' rod, and that a 55' head is the ceiling for a 13' rod. So do you mean that these two outfits cast with similar level of comfort? Or would you have to run an even shorter head on the 13'er to for it to cast as comfortably as your 11.5'er? I'm just trying to see a correlation between head length to rod length ratios and casting comfort. Meaning if the two outfits are equally comfortable to cast and fish, does the ratio stay the same, or does the ratio increase as the rod gets longer? Sorry man, I can get carried away with theory!

Thanks,
Sean

-Sean
Captcaveman is offline  
post #37 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 05:18 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captcaveman View Post
Hi coalbe. I am aware of the 3 bump rule. I was unsure if this was intended only for standard length head (30'ish) WF lines, or any length head WF line because as far as I know, all SH lines are rated for line class by grain weight at the first 30'. So as a 2H caster, wouldn't you count the weight of the entire head... say... a 45' long head? That is if you intend to cast with the entire 45' head past the rod tip? This does not even take into account the weight distribution within the entire head... like a "rear loaded compound taper" (this is where it gets really funky).

Sorry man, these thoughts are all a part of me enjoying the journey. All this stuff is going through my head when I'm looking for a fly line. I actually have a theory about a better way to weigh spey lines and lessen the margin for error when selecting the proper weight line for a given rod. If you want to go down a rabbit hole, ask me about it sometime.

I should probably just shut up and go earn some money to spend on more lines!
Line head weight and length are obvious factors but for Spey casting the weight ratio between front and rear half effects to Spey cast efficiency because it is the top of the D-loop which is accelerated on delivery cast. Then it lifts and accelerates the rest to the line loop. Changing to longer leader it is easiest method to improve Spey cast efficiency and casting distance if back cast room allows to cast wider D-loop but naturally longer leader begins to limit fly size and line straightening to head wind etc...

This link contains many of my Spey heads but most of them are #10/11 rod but there are few I cast using lighter rods.

https://www.perhokalastajat.net/kesk...hp?f=2&t=29343

When I measure a WF line I find the point where the rear taper becomes same diameter the tip has or ends (sometimes when rear taper is shallow deciding the end is interpretive but they are the lines which often are cast using different lengths out of rod but when interpreting different WF same way you will get results you can compare) and put small piece of masking tape or permanent pen stripe there. Then I put line tip there and pull this folded line head thru hands and I find the middle point of head and mark it. Then I coil both half and weight them on a cardboard cup which weight I take out using "tare" button.

It is possible to get very accurate readings without cutting the line. When half of the head is on cup I hold the rest parallel out of cup rim four inches away so that length mark comes two inches away. When line is thich there is possibility to press cup down or lift it up but testing this effect while reading display it is easy to avoid.

So when a WF line rear half weight is measured there come two lines out of cup, running line and front half. When shooting head and WF front half is measured only one line.

To this database I have calculated what persentage the rear half is from total head weight and I call it Weight Balance% and for Spey lines it should be "rear"!

I have measured lots of other lines but I can't edit first post anymore but I should make a new table...

Esa
kdt likes this.
bender is online now  
post #38 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 06:49 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Captcaveman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 62
Esa, nice work buddy! Your method is the rabbit hole I was talking about in my last reply to coalbe's post! If you combine the optimum rear half weight (for proper rod load), and if you know a certain length rod is most comfortable to cast with a certain head length to rod length ratio (this ratio is what I was asking Ard about), in theory this should reduce the guesswork significantly when choosing a line to match any given rod.
The only other contributing factors would be caster preference (does the caster prefer a deep or a shallow rod load), caster skill (primarily determines maximum head length), fly size/weight/air resistance (also determines head length), and weather conditions (wind, especially when the rod in question is a 3 weight trout spey rod).


I've already used this method to choose lines for my 6wt switch rod. It worked in that instance.

My thinking is that the heavier the spey rod rating (think 10wt), more deviation from the optimum rear half of head weight is possible, but still load decently. The smaller the spey rod rating (think 3wt) the less deviation is possible.

Example: I just took two SH rated WF6F lines out to lawn cast with a grass leader. One has a 36' head including a long rear taper, the other is 39' including a shorter rear taper. The short one was awesome! Easy casting, good speed, nice loop shape, shot a small amount of running line. Unfortunately I have no idea who made it, it came on a used reel I bought on an auction site. The longer one was awful. It required much more effort, speed wasn't as good, tailing loops were happening (so this WF6F is overloading the rod), no shooting line. I will be taking these to the water to test cast again. I lent my grain scale to friend, but when it's returned I'll be weighing both lines.

I forgot one more variable: Is the caster wanting a double taper line? This matters (especially on light spey rods) because the line still in the rod guides contributes to rod load without actually being cast.

-Sean

Last edited by Captcaveman; 04-19-2019 at 07:42 AM.
Captcaveman is offline  
post #39 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 07:26 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Captcaveman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 62
For the record everybody, the reason this thread was titled "Mid-belly line for Redington Hydrogen 3113" is because I used the following formula to describe what head length I'm interested in:

3-3.5 x rod length = short belly
4-4.5 x rod length = mid belly
5-5.5 x rod length = long belly

-Sean
Captcaveman is offline  
post #40 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 10:02 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captcaveman View Post
I forgot one more variable: Is the caster wanting a double taper line? This matters (especially on light spey rods) because the line still in the rod guides contributes to rod load without actually being cast.
I see rod load/bend having positive and negative effect. When rod bend is "matched" to casting stroke length the line acceleration path comes straighter and smoother (less TL and other waving) and it improves line loop which usually means narrowing it. But longer and wider casting stroke can also increase line velocity so it is positive to fishing range.

But I am not sure if rod load/unload cycle has much effect to casting performance so that I try to achieve more load and sacrifice good line loop!

I have mostly old DH rods which are heavier for their stiffness and few newer which are lighter and it looks like I want and need to cast heavier lines and I think its because rod bends less because of its lower Moment Of Inertia so I cast heavier line to achieve enough bend. I have more modern very light single hand rods and with them I have found I need to use narrow and sharp casting stroke when casting short length of line but it is not difficult when MOI is light.

There is a term "bamboo feel" which means that using heavier and softer rod it is possible to cast even only long leader when rod bends without line weight and when rods evolve lighter they bend less itself.

So I think that the DT line which is inside rod has much more negatives! It increase rod bend and line accelerates slower. Also if cast is lengthened using line shoot thicker and heavier DT line does not shoot as good as lighter SLs and RLs

I select my lines so short that they are easy to cast but so long that I don't need to strip too much between casts. If back cast is so limited that most of the casts are done so that shooting loop comes close the hands and I need to lengthen range shooting line I change to shorter head.

I tune and experiment different leader lengths. When I cast +600gr / 40ft head using 15ft rod for average 2" fly I use about 17ft mono. When fly is smaller and weighted I might use 20ft mono and with big fly which is only 3" fox tube or 4-5" slim eel pattern only 12ft mono leader.

Esa
bender is online now  
post #41 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 10:53 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Captcaveman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 62
Yes Esa! As head becomes longer, so must the casting stroke. Using your theory a caster can maximize head length and then decrease the need for stripping by using a long head WF line or a long shooting head with lighter running line looped to it. This makes a lot of sense. You are one smart dude! Now I need to buy an inexpensive long taper DT to cut and weld to a thin running line!

-Sean
Captcaveman is offline  
post #42 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-19-2019, 11:10 PM
speydb
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Snoqualmie River
Posts: 28
I have the Hydrogen 3113 and I find the SA Spey Lite Scandi 210 works great. I find you can not force this rod at all and this line single hand casts well. I would also recommend the SA Spey Lite Skagit 240 but the cast is more clunky. I use polyleaders for these lines.
SkagitMiester likes this.
speydb is offline  
post #43 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 05:27 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: genesee river
Posts: 331
i use a 4wt rio sh scandi line on my echo sr 3 wt dh . works for me .
thanks . jim

Listen to the river sing sweet songs to rock my soul ...
jimlucey is offline  
post #44 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 12:33 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Captcaveman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 62
Hi Jim, did you mean the Rio Single Hand Spey line in #4?

-Sean
Captcaveman is offline  
post #45 of 55 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 01:44 AM
kdt
Registered User
 
kdt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 494
I have a hydrogen 3wt and use it with a light scandi or the [WF6F] 230 grain Rio Single Hand Spey and it works very well for the light flies. I find the 6 wt a bit light but under the right conditions it shines. It's integrated running line mends fine for me.

Steve Godshall made me a UK Vector head for my 5wt 12'7" Quantum. Its 43.7 feet and with 15' tips make 58'7" . It casts so nice I find I fish it even when I should be using a lighter rod. (I have thought many times of asking Steve to make me a lighter and shorter Vector for the Hydrogen).

My 13' RST Skeena light is a joy to use with a 65' CND GPS 6/7 . WHY DID THEY STOP MAKING THESE LINES??? It also gets fished when I should be lighter.

I have a 8'6" 4wt single hand I have added a butt to use for double hand. A 4wt Single Hand Spey works nice on this but I find I use it with everything from a 150grain Commando to a home cut brew of pieces of misc heads. Old Windcutter pieces have been successful. The right long constant taper is a challenging thing to come by when they are light. I found a CND 5/6 20' tip works with a short polly on a home brew head I made that comes to 35'.

But a 15' Spey with an 85' CND GPS 10/11

No doubt a longer rod is more satisfying to cast with a long head. That will never stopped me from searching for the perfect longer line on a shorter rod ...

Hello Steve...

Last edited by kdt; 06-04-2019 at 02:14 AM.
kdt is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Spey Pages forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lightsaber!?! R.L. Marlboro Rods 113 09-23-2013 01:44 PM
Rods and lines for throwing whole chickens? Salvelinus Rods 9 09-25-2012 04:51 PM
Extended belly - Mid belly line recommendations for Sage 7141-4 Cougar Tackle 15 01-07-2012 10:54 AM
Line rating question new2spey General 6 11-22-2007 12:54 PM
Skagit articel by Ed Rick J Technique 8 01-05-2006 02:56 PM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome