"Mid" belly line for Redington Hydrogen 3113 - Page 2 - Spey Pages
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post #16 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 10:46 PM Thread Starter
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I started a similar conversation on the tackle forum titled "Question for you double taper lovers out there". I got some interesting suggestions and just posted a report on using DT5F on the Hydrogen 3113... I was somewhat surprised at the results. I like Cowboy Tom's idea too! I was thinking along the same line as him just using an old 8 weight bass taper as my donor line. I havent weighed or mic'd it out yet though. I have to admit, cutting and or splicing perfectly good lines always creeps me out a little even though I have done it before. Once upon a time out of sheer cheapness I cut up an old line and full length welded it into a skagit head for a 4 weight single hander (and I fished it for a full year until the welds failed) before splurging on a real commando head!

-Sean
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post #17 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 01:49 AM
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I have 3 identical Hardy 11 1/2 foot 7 weight rods that work beautifully with 475 grain Beulah Elixir lines. These are the older lines which were full Spey line (integrated vinyl running line) and the heads are 37 feet long with a relatively short front taper.

The lines match these rods perfectly IMO and I have placed one of my reels with these lines on Reddington 11 foot rods when the rod owner was asking what might be a good line for his new rod. The 475 Beulah worked like a charm on his Reddington rod.

When you think of it, trying to go much longer than a 37 foot belly on an 11 foot rod is like trying to get maximum performance using a 65 foot Mid Spey or 70 foot long belly on a 13 foot rod. I've tried that and found the 13 foot rods seem to have a 55 foot ceiling for head length. Not to say you can't make a 65 work but it's work.

Think on a Scandi line in the 35 foot range for your rod maybe. If you can find one that is a full 100 or 120 foot line you may also enjoy leaving the loop to loop running line thing in the rear view as well.
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post #18 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 10:12 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Hardyreels! Good to hear from you again! I thought I might be in for some work trying a longer line on a short rod. To date my best performing "long line" is a Trout LT DT5F. I was able to get 60' from my toes to the fly, but not as easily as I had hoped. I was expecting better results, but according to what you and others have posted, I was able to at least equal if not exceed some people's expectations. By the way, this whole long line idea really started with your video on how you fish, so it's all your fault! I believe you are right as far as a longer scandi is concerned, finding/making one is the going to be an issue. Many folks already pointed me towards the Rio Single Hand Spey line which might be my best bet (200gr @ 33' for 5wt sh rod, or 230gr @ 33' for 6wt sh rod) for a factory line. However I will continue down the DT road for a while until I get to try a couple of those Single Hand Spey lines. Part of me would like to do away with handshake connections, but the other part likes the idea of a modular line system. Once again thank you, and thanks to everybody here for your input! I'll keep posting on this subject as long as theres worthwhile information or ideas to share!

-Sean
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post #19 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 12:07 PM
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The part about the DT the OP mentions just sounds like a description of casting a DT to me.

But I’ve been scratching my head about the “poor mending” part due to the shortness of the head, but from the “dry fly” part I’m assuming you are talking about “classic” mending not just “swing type” mending - like stack mending, loop flips, etc where you use the weight of the line not just the rod lenght. Or did you mean something else?

If that is so then why not weld/splice a very long section section of level line that IS minimally mendable - what that is (weight per unit lenght) I assume would depend on personal tastes but would not depend on the rod wt at all, or presumably in this case too much on any castsbility issues beyond the head as it sounds like you want to mend from far not necessarily shoot a ton, just the mending weight you feel works for you. Possibly I’m misunderstanding the problem completely, but it sounds like the ideal line would be the head you feel is perfect for the lenght single speys you want to do spliced correctly to a level line you feel is the perfect weight for mending, and the maximum lenght (but no longer to save in some bulk) you would want to do the mends. I think that form of solution would increase the number of easily-available permutations by orders of magnitude, possibly reducing the solution to the “trivial” category, if not to actual optimality.

Again, I might be misunderstanding the initial problem you are posing.

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post #20 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captcaveman View Post
Thanks Hardyreels! Good to hear from you again! I thought I might be in for some work trying a longer line on a short rod. To date my best performing "long line" is a Trout LT DT5F. I was able to get 60' from my toes to the fly, but not as easily as I had hoped. I was expecting better results, but according to what you and others have posted, I was able to at least equal if not exceed some people's expectations. By the way, this whole long line idea really started with your video on how you fish, so it's all your fault! I believe you are right as far as a longer scandi is concerned, finding/making one is the going to be an issue. Many folks already pointed me towards the Rio Single Hand Spey line which might be my best bet (200gr @ 33' for 5wt sh rod, or 230gr @ 33' for 6wt sh rod) for a factory line. However I will continue down the DT road for a while until I get to try a couple of those Single Hand Spey lines. Part of me would like to do away with handshake connections, but the other part likes the idea of a modular line system. Once again thank you, and thanks to everybody here for your input! I'll keep posting on this subject as long as theres worthwhile information or ideas to share!
Oh boy, I didn't realize that I had instigated this when I posted. I just saw the rod described and harkened to that day last year putting my reel and line on that fellows rod so he could learn to cast with it.

For length of line vs. presentation maybe consider this; those rods I mentioned are 11 1/2 foot - the floating head on those Elixir lines are 37' - I make a 12 foot leader for fishing with them.

They cast really easy and it is no problem getting the vinyl running line involved in casts. I do realize that the thinner running line mends but once you have beyond 10 feet or so out behind the head it becomes hard to move the head at all.

That is where the mend as the fly is about to land thing comes into play in a big way. That said, consider this maybe. The head is 37 - the leader is 12, right there you have 49 feet. Next comes the reach added by the extended rod, I'll allow ten feet for that...…

So with just the head, leader and rod extension in play you are fishing all floating fly line at approximately 59 foot from where your feet are planted. And, the cast was effortless, there's something to be said for the level of ease when making casts, at least it is something I take into consideration when trying to enjoy the fishing part

To find a Scandi that may have the length you need look perhaps to Airflow or reach out to Steve Godshall to see if he can put something on that rod for you with the proper weight and design to make things click.

I'm hoping that you are talking about Spey style casts in all this because that's what I'm referencing.

Ard
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post #21 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
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Botsari, by poor mending I did mean during downstream presentations (including dry fly skating). I'm not mending to increase fly depth, but to control what my fly is doing out there. My streams/rivers often have multiple fish holding structures (boulders, slots, sunken logs, and under overhanging branches and log jams) through the arc of one swing that can be fished more effectively by making my fly act as real as possible.
I want to be able to make my wet fly look like an actual emerging caddis or mayfly, and dry fly skating to look like an egg laying caddis, or one that is having trouble getting free from its shuck. I already do this with my single handers on smaller water, I want to be able to do it on bigger water as well. I want to cover as much water as possible with more realism than just a dead swing. Most of our trout here are intelligent, selective, and highly pressured. Realistic presentations catch fish.
"Classic" up or across stream (dead drift) dry fly mending I feel would only be effective with any rod at relatively close range when fishing across multiple current seams, or around obstructions which is the case on most of the waters I fish.
As far as my ideal line. I want it to cast as easy as a scandi, as far from my casting position as possible, with little to no shooting, with the ability to maximize realistic presentation by mending, all from an 11'3" 3wt spey rod (that still makes catching smaller fish fun). In short I want it all. I'm aware that this probably doesn't exist. But I'm willing to try different things to see how close I can get.

-Sean
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post #22 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 05:52 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Ard! You didn't instigate this, it's just how you use mending to control depth, speed, and presentation of a sunken streamer is very similar to how I use mending to present emergers and dries down stream. We introduce slack or tension depending on the desired result.
However I will be trying your method for streamer fishing. Yes spey casting only, no overhead. Another reason I don't want to shoot much line, besides mending, is to reduce time between casts. You know how crowded central Pa streams & rivers can be... if you don't fish through a spot fast enough the worm dunkers will jump in the water right next to you (literally)! The only reason I thought a DT might be worth a try, is because I like how they cast (spey and overhead) and fish on single handers. So far the DT on a trout spey rod didn't give me any more distance than the same DT on a 9' single hander does. I assume it's because I usually double haul longer single spey casts on my single handers. Not that I have to very often, but I can comfortably, and consistently single spey 40' of DT3F + 10' of leader and tippet on a 6.5' 3wt glass rod when I haul into the d-loop and haul on the forward stroke (that's a 6:1 line to rod length ratio). I thought that a 4:1 ratio on an 11' spey rod (two handed casting, no hauling) would be easy... it wasn't. It was humbling. A long scandi head sounds great (easy to cast but still has reach without much shooting)! I'll get in touch with Steve Godshall and see if an easy casting long scandi line is possible for a 3 weight trout spey.
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post #23 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 06:04 PM
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I would like to blame a lot of things on Ard. Problem is he would just likely accept it.

Dan

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post #24 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captcaveman View Post
Hi Ard! You didn't instigate this, it's just how you use mending to control depth, speed, and presentation of a sunken streamer is very similar to how I use mending to present emergers and dries down stream. We introduce slack or tension depending on the desired result.
However I will be trying your method for streamer fishing. Yes spey casting only, no overhead. Another reason I don't want to shoot much line, besides mending, is to reduce time between casts. You know how crowded central Pa streams & rivers can be... if you don't fish through a spot fast enough the worm dunkers will jump in the water right next to you (literally)! The only reason I thought a DT might be worth a try, is because I like how they cast (spey and overhead) and fish on single handers. So far the DT on a trout spey rod didn't give me any more distance than the same DT on a 9' single hander does. I assume it's because I usually double haul longer single spey casts on my single handers. Not that I have to very often, but I can comfortably, and consistently single spey 40' of DT3F + 10' of leader and tippet on a 6.5' 3wt glass rod when I haul into the d-loop and haul on the forward stroke (that's a 6:1 line to rod length ratio). I thought that a 4:1 ratio on an 11' spey rod (two handed casting, no hauling) would be easy... it wasn't. It was humbling. A long scandi head sounds great (easy to cast but still has reach without much shooting)! I'll get in touch with Steve Godshall and see if an easy casting long scandi line is possible for a 3 weight trout spey.
I really didn't understand that you are located in Central Pennsylvania, and.... it also took some reading to realize we aren't talking about a six or 7 weight rod, Duh. If you need contact info for Steve just drop a PM to me, I have great confidence in his abilities to make custom lines and use many of them here.

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I would like to blame a lot of things on Ard. Problem is he would just likely accept it.

Dan
At this point with all the various verbal and written missteps I've made Dan you are absolutely correct, I seldom even offer a defense
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post #25 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captcaveman View Post
Botsari, by poor mending I did mean during downstream presentations (including dry fly skating). I'm not mending to increase fly depth, but to control what my fly is doing out there. My streams/rivers often have multiple fish holding structures (boulders, slots, sunken logs, and under overhanging branches and log jams) through the arc of one swing that can be fished more effectively by making my fly act as real as possible.
I want to be able to make my wet fly look like an actual emerging caddis or mayfly, and dry fly skating to look like an egg laying caddis, or one that is having trouble getting free from its shuck. I already do this with my single handers on smaller water, I want to be able to do it on bigger water as well. I want to cover as much water as possible with more realism than just a dead swing. Most of our trout here are intelligent, selective, and highly pressured. Realistic presentations catch fish.
"Classic" up or across stream (dead drift) dry fly mending I feel would only be effective with any rod at relatively close range when fishing across multiple current seams, or around obstructions which is the case on most of the waters I fish.
As far as my ideal line. I want it to cast as easy as a scandi, as far from my casting position as possible, with little to no shooting, with the ability to maximize realistic presentation by mending, all from an 11'3" 3wt spey rod (that still makes catching smaller fish fun). In short I want it all. I'm aware that this probably doesn't exist. But I'm willing to try different things to see how close I can get.

If you mean “little or no shooting of line” then there is zero problem as any head you can cast can easily be mended however you want with only a few feet of shooting line out the tip of the rod. Downstream presentations, even with more shooting line out, even fewer issues. Leaving aside what mending techniques you use which are pretty irrelevant, categorizing something like the Rio single hand spey line as having inferior mending qualities doesn’t make any sense at all in this context. It’s just not computing, sorry. So trying to figure out what you are actually saying is not easy.

It appears all you are asking is if there is a longer head you can spey cast on a 3 wt switch rod.

If you want an off the shelf line that is relatively easy to cast that has a head around 34’, not including a tapered leader then try the Rio SH Spey line already suggested. If you want even longer try one of those, but there are, as you have already figured out, not a ton out there at that wt - I think none specifically optimized for “ease of spey casting” at that weight longer than that line. I think the ballistic vectors are the longest off the shelf SPEY lines at the very low weight end of the spectrum and perhaps, just barely, you could try the 4/5 at 41’ on that rod but it would probably be too heavy, and choking up a bit just turns it back into something closer to the SH Spey line.

Or save your time and just get Steve Godshall to build you one from specs you think you want - so much easier doing it that way at the extreme light weight end of things. It will cost the same and be less frustrating looking for, or otherwises cobbling together a line. Steve is the MAN for this - he has regular customers that fish 80’ heads on crazy custom 5 wt spey rods so your spec interests here are quite moderate compared to that. As an added benefit when you contact him he will be able to provide a one-stop reality check on whether something you want to try can work. He has told me a few times when he thought what I asked for was not physically workable as a line - I have a bad habit of asking for “the same thing but 10’ longer this time”.

Presentation CONTROL is IMO an issue somewhat orthogonal to the line length, but if you are talking about quarted downstream then seriously consider the well establish and highly effective solution to this problem - a longer rod. They are an acquired taste at that wt, but are a possible answer to pushing the boundaries, and will make life so much more pleasant is the spec range you seem to be interested in.

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post #26 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 12:16 AM Thread Starter
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Botsari, I want a line with a head that is at least 10' longer than a Rio SHS, but I'll take as long a head as I can get that is still easy to cast. Casting short distances comfortably is easy, casting long distances without using a shooting head is not. Not that I need extremely long (for a light 11' rod) casts, but many times I'm out (regardless of what rod I'm fishing), I push the rod/line combination to give me more distance than it or I are capable of, so i want to be able to cast ridiculously long distances easier so I can reach more fish holding water.

Yes I'm talking about quartering downstream casts.

Unfortunately a longer rod would help to solve the distance problem, but cause another problem... casting an 11' rod when I'm wading and casting from under tree branches is difficult enough without adding more rod length. Most of our trout water where I'm at has tree cover. I've already broken a rod tip or two when I forgot to pay attention to the branches.

I want to see what I can get out of my existing rod. Where is the limit of easy distance without shooting line on this 3 weight 11'-3" rod?

I can justify spending the cost of a line for this rod easier than I can justify the cost of another, more expensive rod and then more lines to go with that new rod. I can't spend all of my money on fishing gear... I need to retire some day

I will get in touch with Mr. Godshall.

-Sean
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post #27 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 03:13 AM
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I got myself an Airflo River & Stream 8 wt for similar application with my Echo Glass Switch 4wt. It works pretty well. I tried my Airflo Distance Pro 5wt on the same rod、but that is harder to cast、although it has better "mendability" because of its longer head.

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post #28 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 09:51 AM
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Ard

On my Cabelas 1103-4 I use two lines that are similar to each other. both long front taper. RIO Single Hand Spey #6 And RIO Trout LT 7. Both cast well the LT has a longer head than the Single hand so I use it on bigger water. I haven't tried any other lines. These are single hand lines that meet the lines weight that my rod likes.

On the big ole auction site they have been dumping the 7 wt LT

I just couldn't resist picking it up. It was a tad heavy so I trimmed about 24" off the tip and now it casts like a rocket. The tip is now 43' the Single hand is the older one and is 30' I believe they made it shorter this year. The LT 7 was $25.00 buy now haven't looked to see if it is still listed.

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post #29 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 11:19 AM
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Botsari, I want a line with a head that is at least 10' longer than a Rio SHS, but I'll take as long a head as I can get that is still easy to cast. Casting short distances comfortably is easy, casting long distances without using a shooting head is not. Not that I need extremely long (for a light 11' rod) casts, but many times I'm out (regardless of what rod I'm fishing), I push the rod/line combination to give me more distance than it or I are capable of, so i want to be able to cast ridiculously long distances easier so I can reach more fish holding water.

Yes I'm talking about quartering downstream casts.

Unfortunately a longer rod would help to solve the distance problem, but cause another problem... casting an 11' rod when I'm wading and casting from under tree branches is difficult enough without adding more rod length. Most of our trout water where I'm at has tree cover. I've already broken a rod tip or two when I forgot to pay attention to the branches.

I want to see what I can get out of my existing rod. Where is the limit of easy distance without shooting line on this 3 weight 11'-3" rod?

I can justify spending the cost of a line for this rod easier than I can justify the cost of another, more expensive rod and then more lines to go with that new rod. I can't spend all of my money on fishing gear... I need to retire some day

I will get in touch with Mr. Godshall.

Yeah, this sound a bit like me. For some reason every time I find a line I really love on a rod I always start looking for a similar one that is 10’ longer.

It will be interesting to hear what Steve thinks. Possibly he will say that at that light weight it is hard to do. On the other hand as I recall two of the lines I wanted in vain for him to supersize were scandi designed to use tips so possibly that was the issue. But it sounds like a problem he would love to take a stab at. I’m pretty sure he can give you the definitive breakdown of what is possible. He designs and builds a ton of workaday rods and lines for people, but he has a special passion for freaky, fringe lightweight stuff!

Two things as last observations. Yes, a longer line will get you some more distance. But the best reason (and a good one) to use a longer head, integrated or no, is to be able to do touch and go casts and eliminate or minimize any stripping. The ease of fishing this way is very addictive - one of my mentors describes fishing down a long run doing single speys with a long line and no stripping as one of the greatest joys he can experience on a river. But the longer line does not give you more or different control over the presentation, as far as I can see, within the milieu of a swung or skated fly. Maybe there is something I haven’t thought of, but I don't think this is an issue.

And second, if you are planning to use that long a line I’m not sure having the shorter rod to go under the trees is a real solution. The longer rod and longer line do however allow for other tricks and techniques for dealing with these situations, so nearly always fishable. But it is a judgment call how much time and effort you want to spend on any given river on using these ‘trick’ casts, let alone on the learning curve. But for presentation control at a distance a longer rod is the solution par excellence. But Steve is also THE guy to talk about finding a spey rod that is a standard deviation or more away from the center of the bell curve for a given weight. So win win.

I think something conservative relative to the fringe, like a 13’ 4w that could cast something like the lowest weight Ballistic Vector (a line Steve had a hand in designing) might be revelatory for you. Gary Anderson makes a very nice 14’4” 5 wt blank. - just saying. We here at speypages are major enablers so you are probably in wrong place if you a worried about buying more stuff.

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post #30 of 55 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 12:31 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for your thoughts on the 8wt River & Stream and the 7wt Trout LT guys. Both of these lines were on my "gotta try" list. I just wasnt sure which line weights might be appropriate for my rod. Now I have a starting point!

-Sean
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