Sage 2109 ONE - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-26-2015, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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Sage 2109 ONE

Finally rec'd my new Sage 2109 ONE and did some line testing today.

Tested were the RIO Scandi Short 180gr and 210gr.
The 180gr will cast with excellent timing, if you are slightly off,,,, it just rolls out rather slowly with weak turnover.
The rod really likes the Scandi 210gr,, it is much less timing sensitive and really casts well with a leader of 16ft including tippet.
Very nice line for small soft hackle and wet flies.

Next tried the RIO Trout Skagit 11ft line in 200gr. This is the line Sage recommends for the rod. Excellent line with Light MOW tips,,, I tested the 7.5ft floating/2.5ft sinking T-11 with short leader. In addition, the full floating MOW with 6ft heavy tapered RIO leader and a short tippet is the most impressive for larger heavy flies. I do not have the Intermediate MOW floating and will purchase them soon.

Note: RIO has a chart with the weight in grains for the MOW tips,,, the Light floating 10ft is 90 grains which means we are casting a total of 200 + 90 = 290gr on the little 2wt rod.

I will test next time some 10ft tips from the Scandi Short Versi Tip lines, these are 55gr, 65gr and 75gr in the #5, #6 and #7 wt sizes and more of a longer taper than the MOW floating.

I also have a full set of OPST Commando lines but did not have time to test cast. I expect the 12.5ft 175gr will be fine on the little 2wt rod.

The running line today was the OPST Lazar line in 0.016" dia. This line continues to be great for distance however, it readily twists up into a mess within a short time of casting. One hour and it was almost unusable.

The easy way to remove the twists is to switch hands ( I am RH) and cast LH upper for a period of time. We introduce a half twist into the running line with every cast. Some running lines are more sensitive to this activity. It is also best to not have any excess line on the water at the completion of a cast,,,, burp the reel at every cast. The Lazar running line would slap the rod blank at impressive and distances with the RIO Trout Skagit line and MOW Light tips.

Regards,
FK
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Last edited by FKrow; 10-28-2015 at 12:03 PM.
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-27-2015, 10:10 AM
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I have been fishing the 200 grain RIO skagit trout on a converted 5wt single hand rod. The rod is 9'6" and now has a 3" lower handle. The 200 grain head will chuck some meat. 10ft of T-8 and a medium fly works just fine. Rod weight ratings are so off. If that rod is casting the same as my 5wt single had conversion rod why would it be called a 2wt. I feel like it is miss leading. The rod is small for sure not going to argue that but trout spey rods should be similar in rating to single hand rods. If I can buy a 10ft 5wt single hand rod I should be able to buy a 10'6" 5wt switch/spey rod and have it line up when it comes to fish fighting ability.
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-27-2015, 11:44 AM Thread Starter
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The Spey line ratings are not related to the single hand AFTMA or AFFTA line ratings.
A single hand line is rated on the first 30ft - less the level tip.
Almost all of the WF lines today are over 30ft in head length and heavier than the standard number in grains.

A 5wt single hand rod is rated at 140gr,,, if you are happy with 200gr,, then you are casting an 8wt line with standard line rating of 210gr.

If you go to AFFTA.org and research the Spey line standards,, they are also obsolete and not close to reality of todays rods and lines.

The manuf. number on a rod indicates how it is placed in that manuf. line up of rods, it is not related to line weight.
We have no standard for Spey rods and the number on the rod blank.

For example,,,, a typical 4wt Trout Spey rod likes a Scandi line of 270gr.
TFO 11ft 4wt likes 240gr
TFO 12'6" 4/5wt likes 240gr
Mystic 11'3" 4wt likes 210gr
Echo 12ft 4wt likes 270gr
Sage 11'6' 4wt likes 270gr

Not based on a standard makes it rather difficult for new FF getting an understanding of line weights and rods in the Spey world.

My personal Trout Spey line vs rod ratings for Scandi lines is as follows:
2wt = 200-210gr
3wt = 240gr
4wt = 270-280gr
5wt = 300-330gr

Skagit lines will be typically + 50-80gr heavier than the Scandi lines. This is with the Skagit Short designs at 18-20ft length.

Today we have exceptions with the ultra short Trout Skagit lines from RIO and OPST which concentrates the line weight towards the tip of the rod and are very light in grains however will carry a relatively heavy section of T-what ever.

Regards,
FK
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-28-2015, 07:41 AM
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Hi,

Great to hear that you finally had a chance to test the Sage 2109 rod and that you tested it with so many different lines.
If you compare the rod to the 3110 and the 4116 rod, is it a big difference in feel, lightness? Am a little suspicious that the rod is capable to throw 200+90 grains; is it a true Baby Spey this one?
Have you tested these rods with the Rio Switch Chucker line or the Skagit Max Short 225 grains?

BR
Mattias
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-28-2015, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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Mattias,

I have not yet tested the Sage 2109 ONE with OPST Commando heads or the RIO Skagit Short Max lines.
Hopefully this weekend it will happen, we have a booth at a fly fishing show and I am committed for one day attendance.

I did not notice the new RIO Switch Chucker lines in 225gr and 275gr,,, will order these immediately to complete the collection,,,, thanks for heads up. I like the 325gr on my Sage 5119 TCX and Thomas & Thomas DNA 1195 rods.

The Sage 2019 rod to me, is a true 2wt Trout Spey, it is delicate with the RIO Scandi 210gr yet has enough lower butt strength to cast the 200gr RIO Trout Skagit 11ft with 90gr of MOW floating tip.

All of the Trout Spey rods that I have cast in the lightest weights, can easily cast this amount of Skagit however are softer in the butt section and do not recover as quickly as the Sage ONE designs.

The Sage rods are in their own class, stiffer lower section with nice distance and recovery. This is excellent in windy conditions when you must increase line speed or go home. It also helps when switching to a heavy fly with the Skagit line variations we now have available.

My personal judgment for rating a Trout Spey is the Scandi line it will comfortably cast with long leader and small wet fly.
The Skagit lines allow such a wide grain window it is difficult to place the rod in a Spey line weight slot.

For example a popular rod is the Meiser 12'6" 4wt, it was shipped to a friend with a Steve Godshall Scandi line 324gr and Polyleaders of 75gr = total 400gr line. This is not correct or incorrect, it is the way the rod maker decided to label the rod and the line that was comfortable for that individual casting style.
My favorite 4wt rods are Echo TR 12ft 4wt and Sage 4116 ONE,,, these rods like a 270-280gr Scandi line and long mono leader, for my casting style. Will they cast 400gr ?,,, yes absolutely.

The Sage 2109, 3110 and 4116 to me are all excellent Trout Spey rods,,,, rather pricey however, the performance is worth it to me personally. Light in hand for swing weight and with nice flex for easy casting. Very quick recovery with the Sage graphite design and will give increased line speed and distance compared to the other rods on the market. Are they worth the additional $$,,, up to the individual.

Regards,
FK
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-28-2015, 06:42 PM
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great detail

thank you for the analysis. you referenced the Meiser 1264 which as you noted is often shipped with a 324 gr line. for comparison, is this the line you would use on 1264 for your style? this may not be fair, as you have not had the time to experiment with it (changing lines and notes can be time consuming)

the reference to wet and soft hackle flies also helps to determine application
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-29-2015, 12:10 AM Thread Starter
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R-P,

Your blog is great many thanks, I enjoy reading the details with fine photographs.

For my casting style, I use a Scandi 325gr line with mono leaders on a 5wt Spey,, the Sage 5119 TCX or 5126 ONE. When a 75gr polyleader is added the total floating line wt is approx. 400gr which brings me up to a 6126 ONE or Z-Axis.

I have cast quite a few Meiser rods and they usually have heavier lines provided than my casting style feels comfortable using. Not a right or wrong line weight, it is individual casting style.

My partners and I teach Spey casting, we do not guide or work for any retail shops. The advantage is having the opportunity to cast almost every rod manuf. product. We also have a large selection of lines for the students to test cast on new rods or experiment with older equipment. Over a 8 year period we have collected way too many rods and lines but it is a very enjoyable experience.

I like the charts on RIO Products site,,, Simon has developed over the years a recommended line rating vs rod manuf. window that is very close to our underhand power application casting style. Column A is lighter in weight for more experienced casters and column B for heavier weight if that is your preference.
If your rod is the S2H1264S-4 model,,, the chart suggests Scandi 240-270gr and Skagit 250-275gr which should be nice casting with good line speed for distance. The Skagit could be bumped up a little for longer (heavier) lengths of "T" tips and heavier flies.

How does one determine a "correct" line weight? We observe the individual casting and watch the deflection in the rod blank, a line that is rather light will bend mainly in the upper 1/3,,, to heavy a line and the rod bends very deep and the cast will have the lower loop drop or "plow" early in the roll out which indicates lack of line speed. We like the rod to bend towards the middle and have addition reserve for the occasional longer cast or heavy fly situation. You want the running line to slap the rod blank and occasionally "burp" the reel drag at the end of the cast roll out. New casters do better with the heavier lines and experienced FF prefer lighter line weights in general.

I recommend to test the rod with various lines if possible, do not use internet suggestions as a final answer to line weights. We almost always have a student test cast with three line weight increments and tell us which they feel is best for their rods.

Regards,
FK
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-29-2015, 09:25 AM Thread Starter
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I forgot about the RIO Anti Twist Spey Swivel product,,,, ordered some today with the RIO Switch Chucker 225gr & 275gr lines.
The Switch Chuckers are very similar to the older Ambush lines, a little longer head and should be great for closer retrieves without bumping the loops through the rod tip. Not all of our presentations are long distance,, many nice holding areas are rather short and I like to retrieve the fly close to the rod tip. Watch for the follows that turn away at the last second,,, rather exciting.

Hopefully the Anti Twist Swivel will help with the running line twisting problem we are having with the OPST Lazar running line.
My teaching partners and I have identical observations,,, with a Scandi head it is not too bad,,,, change to a Skagit head with "T" or MOW tips and in a very short time the running line becomes a tangled twisted mess.
The line shoots so nicely on the Trout Speys, we do not want to give up without testing all of the possible solutions.

Too many rods and lines,,,, not enough time to play.

Regards,
FK
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-30-2015, 11:40 PM
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lines

for single hand rods, I have a collection of lines. it is amazing how a different line truly impacts the rod, the cast and presentation. unfortunately, this involves an investment in spools and lines.

I have not made the same investment in 2h lines.

You are correct in that I am using the 324gr line from Bob and Steve and I do like how it casts. I could see a lighter line and may purchase one.

I have stopped thinking about "wts" for lines and focus on grains now. so to me the designation 1264 means 12'6" and a line to match this model called 1264S.

with respect, I am getting - more so on the Sage 7wt and Loomis 9wt - the plow. I am still working on this, and is part of my cast that I am trying out.

thank you the compliment on the blog.
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-01-2015, 08:41 AM Thread Starter
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The line is perhaps the most important element in evaluating rod performance, especially with single hand rods.

Research the line front taper length and do some comparison test casting.

Some rods have a rather narrow window and with a line change can be transformed into a much improved casting tool.
The next FF will try the rod with that line and think it is terrible.
Individual cast styles,,,,, use the Internet recommendation as a starting point and develop your own preferences.

Unfortunately most fly shops have crap for demo lines, AKA parking lot lines.

I have a collection of older beat up used reels that are set up with various lines for rod testing.

Regards,
FK
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 09:55 AM
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Thanks again for the input that you are sharing regarding the rod, itīs really helpful. Am super happy with my sage 4116 but I want a rod a little bit smaller and suitable for my fishing I smaller creeks. And i think the 2109 will be just perfect :-)

Is there any difference in length of the handles between the Switch and Trout Spey rod?

BR
Mattias
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-06-2015, 08:41 PM Thread Starter
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The lower cork and reel seat is identical with 4116 and 2109 however, the upper cork is 32mm shorter on the 2109.
Diameters are the same for both rods.

My person preference favors longer on the upper cork, when you cast the rod for a while it is not even noticed.

Regards,
FK
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-07-2015, 02:40 PM
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I just received this rod yesterday & did some lawn casting with several lines (200 & 225 gr.). I think I am really going to like this rod - more to come......


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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-07-2015, 03:40 PM
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Has anyone tried this rod on lakes. I currently use the 4116 one but it's sometimes a bit too much and I like the idea of the 2109
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