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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-03-2016, 07:58 PM Thread Starter
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Columbia Gorge oil train fire

Here's what a Bakken crude oil train fire looks like in your hometown....

WATCH: Video from helicopter above oil train fire in Oregon | KVAL
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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-03-2016, 09:30 PM
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Holy cr**p!

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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-03-2016, 10:34 PM
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This is why pipelines get built. And in fact, why pipelines were built back in the late 19th and early 20th century to begin with. Although there are very few derailments, etc. with trains, they do happen. But the Bakken crude needs to get to refineries somehow and when pipelines don't get permission to be built, rail is the only option other than sending all that crude via big rigs on the highways. Bottom line is we need the crude to refine into fuels, lubricants, and various plastic base stocks and solvents because without crude, our vehicles don't run, ships don't run, planes don't fly, homes don't get heated that use heating oil, plastics, solvents, and many of the resins we all rely on don't get made.
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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-03-2016, 11:45 PM
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This is why pipelines get built. And in fact, why pipelines were built back in the late 19th and early 20th century to begin with. Although there are very few derailments, etc. with trains, they do happen. But the Bakken crude needs to get to refineries somehow and when pipelines don't get permission to be built, rail is the only option other than sending all that crude via big rigs on the highways. Bottom line is we need the crude to refine into fuels, lubricants, and various plastic base stocks and solvents because without crude, our vehicles don't run, ships don't run, planes don't fly, homes don't get heated that use heating oil, plastics, solvents, and many of the resins we all rely on don't get made.

Looks like you are operating in vacuum. Bakken oil development is not profitable below $ 70/barrel ( an average price for a long term, not temporary price for summer time) The production is dropping as oil bubble bursted. Bakken was funded based on bubble and many oil drillers are going out of business. Middle-East producers has break even point of $ 10-20, Russia not much higher , Alberta needs $ 70-75 for new projects, and this is why all new projects have been cancelled .The projects which were already developed ( $ has been sinked into ground) will operate for a while, but building pipelines for declining projects is ridiculous. Car and tracks are getting more efficient every day and China bubble of domestic development for the sake of development is bursting too., not to mention that they are getting more efficient in energy use.

This is why Saudi are fighting for market shares, as oil consumption is not going to increase, and very slowly refocusing away from oil. Solar got so cheap, that Saudi are spending like crazy for Solar installation to sell energy.


Sure we will use oil it for a long time, but you should not based your policy based on momentum and slowly declining energy source.

In US the oil shell which has enormous, low development cost deposit, is located in Texas so pipeline are not needed. All major oil boys are pouring $$$ into Permian Shell which already outgrew Bekken ! ! !!!! and generates 20-25% margins at $ 40 / barrel. Bakken will be dead in less then decade. Permain Shell generates more oil then Egle and Bakken combined and is growing rapidly. The last time have checked Taxas is near Gulf of Mexico and Permian does not need pipelines across US to the Golf of Mexico……

BTW, for 2 years Bakken producers stopped lobbing for oil pipelines are they realized they lifetime is very limited.




Oil Producers Hungry for Deals Drool Over West Texas `Tiramisu' - Bloomberg

OPEC Targets U.S. Shale, But Hits Canada Instead - Bloomberg

Enbridge wants to break its oilsands addiction | National Observer


Clean-Energy Jobs Surpass Oil Drilling for First Time in U.S

Clean-Energy Jobs Surpass Oil Drilling for First Time in U.S. - Bloomberg


Bottom line is we need the crude to refine into fuels, lubricants, and various plastic base stocks and solvents because without crude, our vehicles don't run, ships don't run, planes don't fly, homes don't get heated that use heating oil, plastics, solvents, and many of the resins we all rely on don't get made.

Stop patronizing. They world is awash with oil, US oil commercial reserves grew 15% since january and are at 70 years high. Record oil tankers swims for months around Asia, as nobody needs oil and that unloaded oil is NOT counted as global reserves.
US refineries are importing cheaper oil from abroad too.

There is more then black and white color on CIE chart...... and we can not boil down every answer to just Yes or No.



Bakken oil bubble at $ 100 was a typilcal Ponzii scheme fueled by borrowing to produce oil at near break even point..........
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Last edited by sazan; 06-04-2016 at 11:33 AM.
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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-04-2016, 10:51 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flytyer View Post
This is why pipelines get built. And in fact, why pipelines were built back in the late 19th and early 20th century to begin with. Although there are very few derailments, etc. with trains, they do happen. But the Bakken crude needs to get to refineries somehow and when pipelines don't get permission to be built, rail is the only option other than sending all that crude via big rigs on the highways. Bottom line is we need the crude to refine into fuels, lubricants, and various plastic base stocks and solvents because without crude, our vehicles don't run, ships don't run, planes don't fly, homes don't get heated that use heating oil, plastics, solvents, and many of the resins we all rely on don't get made.
Things are changing.

Clean-Energy Jobs Surpass Oil Drilling for First Time in U.S. - Bloomberg
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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-04-2016, 11:30 AM
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U.S. oil patch heads to the insolvency zone

Wind and Solar Are Crushing Fossil Fuels


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-06/wind-and-solar-are-crushing-fossil-fuels
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-04-2016, 08:51 PM
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Fossil fuel

Any of you who are still driving cars powered by fossil fuel and advocating shutting down pipelines, rail transport, every else having to do with the industry, are nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites! Until you actually have a house & car operating completely free of fossil fuels, you have no room to bad mouth those of us who are not yet ready to buy into all the hype about solar (remember the Solindra boondoggle?) wind, geo thermal etc. That goes for your electric car, heat pump, cooking, everything else. Unplug it. Let's how you get by without burning fossil fuel to generate electricity.

While I might admit this dreamland some of you invision might be nice, we ain't there yet. And I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. You want to invest in clean energy stocks, go ahead. But don't expect the taxpayers to bail you out again when it goes belly up.
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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-05-2016, 04:12 AM
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JD,

To add to your comments, if the federal and state subsidies (yes, that's right tax payer dollars given to them) to wind generation, property tax forgiveness for them, and requirement for the power grid to buy the power even when the grid doesn't need to power and the windmills can shut down, they still get paid as if they were producing power were ended, wind would not be economically viable. In other words, it won't pencil because it will cost more than the income in generates to the owners of the wind farms. Plus, the Interior Department has issued a rule that allows up to 4200 bald and golden eagles to be killed each year by wind farms. So how come they get to kill so many of them and an Indian Tribe in the Wind River Valley of Wyoming was denied a permit to kill 3-5 bald eagles because allowing the tribe to do so would be harmful to the eagle's viability?

With Electric cars, batteries are the problem. Tesla claims (at least they did so today) that they have a battery that will allow their new model (which hasn't been produced yet and is a few years away) go up to 400 miles on a charge. Then it needs to be recharged and depending on the voltage available, could take 30-45 minutes, 3-4 hours, or 8-12 hours. All the other electric vehicles (not hybrids, pure electrics) can only go from 40-120 miles before they need to be recharged. I don't know about you folks, but it takes 5 minutes or thereabouts to fill my car or truck with gasoline and then I'm off down the road again. So driving 700-800 miles in a day is very doable. But if I have to stop and recharge every 40 miles and it takes 2-4 hours to recharge, it will take me a long, long time to go 800 miles. Even if I could go so 150 miles before recharging, it will take a long, long time to go that far. I can get in my car or truck and drive to Portland, OR (roughly 250 miles) from my home in the Skagit Valley on a tank of fuel and have fuel left over. It will take me 4 hours tops to make the trip, with 3.5 hours being normal. Even in a current Tesla with its 200 mile range, I can't make it to Portland on a single charge, and then I have to wait about an hour to recharge (provided I can find 440 volt charging station) or 8-12 hours if I have to use 110 volts. In other words, if all you need is a car to get around the city, electric will work just fine; however, if you leave the city to go fishing, camping, etc. you're not going to have such a pleasant experience with an electric car.

And the only reason non-fossil fuel energy jobs have increased so much is entirely due to the federal and state subsidies, federal grant dollars, state and federal tax forgiveness, and federal and especially state laws requiring electric utilities to use renewable sources of power. And the large solar farm/facility in the southwest desert, isn't working very well, is frying birds as they fly over it, and is only producing a fraction of the power it was supposed to produce. and when the wind isn't blowing, the wind farms can't produce a single kilowatt.

And solar is not practical on moving vehicles, at least not with current technology.

I forgot, we have to solar powered airplane that is making its way around the world. It flies at the unheard of speed of 40-60 MPH with its optimum speed being 48 MPH. And it only holds two people. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be taking that plane on a flight from New York City to Los Angeles, or Seattle to Hawaii, or Seattle to Bozeman, MT any time soon for the simple reason that it will take days to fly across the country, to Hawaii, and will take about 20 hours non-stop to make it to Bozeman from Seattle. This is hardly efficient travel.
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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-05-2016, 09:58 AM
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To both of you. It is pointless to argue with a rigid point of view.

Any of you who are still driving cars powered by fossil fuel and advocating shutting down pipelines

As it was already pointed out US and world is swimming in oil, TX Permian shell ( with break even point ca., $ 30-35/barrel ) near TX the refineries and major shipping hub is overtaking, unprofitable Bakken, so building pipelines to Bakken is foolish and non of remaining oil producers want it !!!!!!!!!

JDJ , have you bother even looked at the facts/link in my original poster, nope .........

As for subsidy, the fossil fuel industry has received near 500 billions in subsidy/tax breaks over the last half of century, so the new technologies deserves at least fraction of that !!!!!, otherwise we are taking abut rigged system....

As I said, nobody is asking to shut down oil production, but we have to be open on alternatives and stop treating oil are the only source of energy and dismissed everything else.

Let me emphasize it again: stop looking at the world in BLACK and WHILE colors only. The are at least many shades of gray.... not


Have a good day gentlemen !!!!!, By, By
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-05-2016, 10:27 AM
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Well,

Bloomberg suggests that much of the Bakken remains profitable down to the $30 barrel rate.

Oil at $30 No Problem for Some Bakken Drillers Cutting Costs - Bloomberg

And it seems that gasoline (therefore, oil) consumption isn't dying off in the US. February saw the highest monthly increase in 40 years.

Gasoline Consumption in U.S. Rises Most in Nearly Four Decades - Bloomberg

It isn't going away.
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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-05-2016, 10:37 AM
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Well,

Bloomberg suggests that much of the Bakken remains profitable down to the $30 barrel rate.

Oil at $30 No Problem for Some Bakken Drillers Cutting Costs - Bloomberg

And it seems that gasoline (therefore, oil) consumption isn't dying off in the US. February saw the highest monthly increase in 40 years.

Gasoline Consumption in U.S. Rises Most in Nearly Four Decades - Bloomberg

It isn't going away.
There is a good reason why production in Bakken goes down and in Permian is skyrocketing.

As for profitability, it is all about an average price for the specific shell. Some Bakken wells are very rich and can stay alive near $ 30, but most not. The same with AB oil sands.

Also many of these wells do not last forever, so the future exploitation in Bakken is dead. Many of Bakken wells even if theoretically unprofitable at the current price are still producing as money were sunken, many small drillers borrowed lots of money and they are producing oil regardless of price to pay off bills. However more and more are going out of business and many banks keeps piling huge losses on books.

Quite a few are asking friendly congress to spend public money to bail then out: translation :
we gambled in a Ponzii scheme, lost and now it is time to share losses and privatized gains.

The bottom line , you do not build pipeline to declining deposit and Bakken producers DO NOT CARE IF THEY HAVE IT OR NOT PIPELINE........ for the obvious reasons !!!!!
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-05-2016, 11:08 AM
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like talking to a ***** wall

Still waiting to see a Prius on the boat ramp.
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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-05-2016, 11:12 AM
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JD,

To add to your comments, if the federal and state subsidies (yes, that's right tax payer dollars given to them) to wind generation, property tax forgiveness for them, and requirement for the power grid to buy the power even when the grid doesn't need to power and the windmills can shut down, they still get paid as if they were producing power were ended, wind would not be economically viable. In other words, it won't pencil because it will cost more than the income in generates to the owners of the wind farms. Plus, the Interior Department has issued a rule that allows up to 4200 bald and golden eagles to be killed each year by wind farms. So how come they get to kill so many of them and an Indian Tribe in the Wind River Valley of Wyoming was denied a permit to kill 3-5 bald eagles because allowing the tribe to do so would be harmful to the eagle's viability?

With Electric cars, batteries are the problem. Tesla claims (at least they did so today) that they have a battery that will allow their new model (which hasn't been produced yet and is a few years away) go up to 400 miles on a charge. Then it needs to be recharged and depending on the voltage available, could take 30-45 minutes, 3-4 hours, or 8-12 hours. All the other electric vehicles (not hybrids, pure electrics) can only go from 40-120 miles before they need to be recharged. I don't know about you folks, but it takes 5 minutes or thereabouts to fill my car or truck with gasoline and then I'm off down the road again. So driving 700-800 miles in a day is very doable. But if I have to stop and recharge every 40 miles and it takes 2-4 hours to recharge, it will take me a long, long time to go 800 miles. Even if I could go so 150 miles before recharging, it will take a long, long time to go that far. I can get in my car or truck and drive to Portland, OR (roughly 250 miles) from my home in the Skagit Valley on a tank of fuel and have fuel left over. It will take me 4 hours tops to make the trip, with 3.5 hours being normal. Even in a current Tesla with its 200 mile range, I can't make it to Portland on a single charge, and then I have to wait about an hour to recharge (provided I can find 440 volt charging station) or 8-12 hours if I have to use 110 volts. In other words, if all you need is a car to get around the city, electric will work just fine; however, if you leave the city to go fishing, camping, etc. you're not going to have such a pleasant experience with an electric car.

And the only reason non-fossil fuel energy jobs have increased so much is entirely due to the federal and state subsidies, federal grant dollars, state and federal tax forgiveness, and federal and especially state laws requiring electric utilities to use renewable sources of power. And the large solar farm/facility in the southwest desert, isn't working very well, is frying birds as they fly over it, and is only producing a fraction of the power it was supposed to produce. and when the wind isn't blowing, the wind farms can't produce a single kilowatt.

And solar is not practical on moving vehicles, at least not with current technology.

I forgot, we have to solar powered airplane that is making its way around the world. It flies at the unheard of speed of 40-60 MPH with its optimum speed being 48 MPH. And it only holds two people. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be taking that plane on a flight from New York City to Los Angeles, or Seattle to Hawaii, or Seattle to Bozeman, MT any time soon for the simple reason that it will take days to fly across the country, to Hawaii, and will take about 20 hours non-stop to make it to Bozeman from Seattle. This is hardly efficient travel.
I don't really care to get into a point by point argument here, and you are quite correct in certain aspects here. I do however feel that it's worth addressing that there are a lot of general partial truths there regarding renewable technologies. This is something I actually have a fair bit of knowledge and real world (day to day living) experience with; and I have to say that it's a bit frustrating the level of miss-information that is constantly being churned out regarding renewable energy technology.
The lack of accurate honest information comes from both sides to be sure... no, putting a solar panel or two on your roof and driving a prius will not save the world, but the comments about how far off current renewable technologies are today are a quickly becoming rather dated. Fact is that there are a lot of ways that we can reduce (not eliminate), but reduce gas and coal consumption; and it's a worthy endeavor to pursue.
It's worth digging a bit deeper into any of the claims being touted, both by the renewable energy industry and by the political/economic forces opposed to it... lots of partly, or almost correct statements out there, not nearly as much completely accurate statements.
JB
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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-05-2016, 12:11 PM Thread Starter
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Any of you who are still driving cars powered by fossil fuel and advocating shutting down pipelines, rail transport, every else having to do with the industry, are nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites! Until you actually have a house & car operating completely free of fossil fuels, you have no room to bad mouth those of us who are not yet ready to buy into all the hype about solar (remember the Solindra boondoggle?) wind, geo thermal etc. That goes for your electric car, heat pump, cooking, everything else. Unplug it. Let's how you get by without burning fossil fuel to generate electricity.

While I might admit this dreamland some of you invision might be nice, we ain't there yet. And I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. You want to invest in clean energy stocks, go ahead. But don't expect the taxpayers to bail you out again when it goes belly up.
At least I have a goal. It's people like you who just bitch to hear yourself that are the problem.
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-05-2016, 12:14 PM Thread Starter
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i don't really care to get into a point by point argument here, and you are quite correct in certain aspects here. I do however feel that it's worth addressing that there are a lot of general partial truths there regarding renewable technologies. This is something i actually have a fair bit of knowledge and real world (day to day living) experience with; and i have to say that it's a bit frustrating the level of miss-information that is constantly being churned out regarding renewable energy technology.
The lack of accurate honest information comes from both sides to be sure... No, putting a solar panel or two on your roof and driving a prius will not save the world, but the comments about how far off current renewable technologies are today are a quickly becoming rather dated. Fact is that there are a lot of ways that we can reduce (not eliminate), but reduce gas and coal consumption; and it's a worthy endeavor to pursue.
It's worth digging a bit deeper into any of the claims being touted, both by the renewable energy industry and by the political/economic forces opposed to it... Lots of partly, or almost correct statements out there, not nearly as much completely accurate statements.
Jb
Yes. Thank you. It's not that hard to understand. Less oil, more renewable = a goal. There are so many naysayers out there that are likely connected monetarily to the fossil fuel industry.
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