What hand does what find out for yourself - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 11:33 AM Thread Starter
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What hand does what find out for yourself

Here’s a little exercise I do with clients and students to help them understand how your dominant hand effects how the rod bends and the efficiency of that bend.
Please give it a try yourselves


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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 12:07 PM
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I get what you are saying about the focus, and perhaps how that may help teach you to make both your sweep and power stroke. I know for sure that what I focus on mentally often helps/reminds me to do certain things correctly.

However, I will point out that it an unavoidable law of physics in that particular exercise that if you hold the rod handle in the same position, regardless of whether you are “pulling on the top hand” or “pushing on the bottom hand” that the actual applied FORCES by the hands are the same in each case, as well as the flex.

But I get that it is a way to start getting people to concentrate on what their lower hand is doing and how it feels. Another way is to have them do some casts where they are barely hanging on with their top hand. But it all come downs to not moving your top hand so damn much!

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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 12:59 PM Thread Starter
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I get what you are saying about the focus, and perhaps how that may help teach you to make both your sweep and power stroke. I know for sure that what I focus on mentally often helps/reminds me to do certain things correctly.

However, I will point out that it an unavoidable law of physics in that particular exercise that if you hold the rod handle in the same position, regardless of whether you are “pulling on the top hand” or “pushing on the bottom hand” that the actual applied FORCES by the hands are the same in each case, as well as the flex.

But I get that it is a way to start getting people to concentrate on what their lower hand is doing and how it feels. Another way is to have them do some casts where they are barely hanging on with their top hand. But it all come downs to not moving your top hand so damn much!
Botsari have you tried it?
If the top hand is your fulcrum point and bottom hand moving against that fulcrum you can feel the difference but like I’ve said go try it then we can talk

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 02:57 PM
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Bots, I remember taking physics in high school about a lifetime ago, but that's about it, so take this for what it's worth. But if your lifting with the top hand against an immobile bottom hand, don't that make the bottom hand the pivot point, the fulcrum, with essentially no movement beyond, so a lever of sorts placed with no mechanical advantage. If pushing (or pulling) with the bottom hand against an immobile (or relatively, in terms of the actual casting movement), you have the mechanics advantage of an effective lever, with a fulcrum. Someone older than me said something about, Give me a lever and a fulcrum on which to place it....
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 03:06 PM
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Archimedes. He knew all about using more bottom hand.
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 03:08 PM
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What I said is also absolutely true, and required by the laws of physics - in this case static mechanics. If your hands are literally in the same spots, both on the rod, and in space, no matter what you think you are doing, the force on each hand, and the rod flex, is the same. That is all I’m saying. How it feels based on the original intention, or whether you got it to that precise position by lowering your lower hand or raising you upper hand (or waving it about at random before arriving at the same configuration) is a psychological rather than physical reality.

Now if you are in fact in a different, more extreme final hand configuration then I would argue that also might be considered “cheating” in this exercise simply because you could have arranged to arrive at that position by any of a infinite number of routes, including one where the last step was raising your UPPER hand. In this case the hands aren’t really in casting position anyway, so the exercise is not teaching that per se.

Again, I’m not arguing with the efficacy of the teaching method as I’m definitely not qualified to judge that, only at the analysis of what is actually going on physically.

We could also do an analysis of the work done by the leaver action, which has nothing to do with the final load of the rod, the final balance of forces, or the final rod flex. That also is easy to do, and without getting into it I don’t think the analysis is going to be what is implied by SLSS - the lever arms, as he seems to be describing them, have the same length BTW. But even so I don’t think that has any bearing on the original point which I take to be this is a way to load a rod more, not a slightly less tiring way.

Personally I’ve always thought focusing on the lower hand is a great tool prevent sloppiness because if you use both hands, and with varying relative amounts, the actual lever point (hence the geometry of the cast) can move around, and especially as the lower hand is hard limited in its motion helping to ensure a hard, high stop. But these are not physical limitations on anyone with enough discipline that advocates using “both hands equally” like Simon Gawesworth in getting equally good results. FWIW I find that I generally do NOT have enough discipline - or at least consistency. The dominant hand is a harsh mistress. . So I do find focusing on the lower hand often fixes my sloppiness when it gets out of hand. But when I cast left handed the problems solve themselves.

I think I have discussed this with people in the past, but in addition to lever arms there is the center of mass of the rod and reel, and this is always close to, if not right at the upper hand when casting. So using less upper hand movement and more lower hand movement will have a very different feel than the other way around. Depending on your personality type it may not matter, but you will certainly have to fight the CM inertia of the rod/reel more using a lot of upper hand. Perhaps fight is the wrong word - you will feel it more, but you can also work it into your stroke as well.

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Last edited by Botsari; 06-19-2020 at 04:19 PM.
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 03:16 PM Thread Starter
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What I said is also absolutely true, and required by the laws of physics - in case static mechanics. If your hands are literally in the same spots, both on the rod, and in space, no matter what you think you are doing, the force on each hand, and the rod flex, is the same. That is all I’m saying. How it feels based on the original intention, or whether you got it to that precise position by lowering your lower hand or raising you upper hand (or waving it about at random before arriving at the same configuration) is a psychological rather than physical reality.

Now if you are in fact in a different, more bent configuration then I would argue that also is “cheating” simply because you could have arranged to arrive at that position by any of a infinite number of routes, including one where the last step was raising your UPPER hand.

Again, I’m not arguing with the efficacy of the teaching method as I’m definitely not qualified to judge that, only at the analysis of what is actually going on physically.

You sound like most engineers I work with

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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 03:27 PM
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Botsari have you tried it?
If the top hand is your fulcrum point and bottom hand moving against that fulcrum you can feel the difference but like I’ve said go try it then we can talk

Ah, but Bruce, have you tried the Bonkerspey?
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 04:15 PM Thread Starter
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Ah, but Bruce, have you tried the Bonkerspey?
Of course I have

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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 04:37 PM
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You sound like most engineers I work with
And you sound like, something familiar. Oh, I remember, the “six casts”. You are demonstrating something that is important, but by trickery rather than logic - or physics. However, whatever works!

Slapping the upper hand with a ruler when it moves too much might also work.
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 05:22 PM
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If I'm not mistaken, the fabled "six casts" was actually being demonstrated by Sir Travis, Earl of Casting.
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 05:28 PM
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Slapping the upper hand with a ruler when it moves too much might also work.
I think I'm detecting some catholic school background.
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 07:10 PM Thread Starter
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And you sound like, something familiar. Oh, I remember, the “six casts”. You are demonstrating something that is important, but by trickery rather than logic - or physics. However, whatever works!

Slapping the upper hand with a ruler when it moves too much might also work.
Wow if your mistaking me for Travis in anyway I take that as the highest compliment out there
Thanks Bots
I almost regret comparing you to enginerds um I mean enginers

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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 07:16 PM
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No, I never mistook you for Travis, it just reminded me or our discussion those 6 casts, and I knew you would recognize the reference since it was you that (most recently) reposted Travis’ video, um, like last week.

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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-19-2020, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
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No, I never mistook you for Travis, it just reminded me or our discussion those 6 casts, and I knew you would recognize the reference since it was you that (most recently) reposted Travis’ video, um, like last week.
So bots since we’re discussing this and that have you ever tried either personally

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