Loop Shape: Educate me... - Spey Pages
 44Likes
Reply
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-21-2019, 09:49 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
SkagitMiester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Deschutes
Posts: 2,006
Loop Shape: Educate me...

Doing Splash and go casts with a Skagit setup, I came across this video clip @ 0:15 and noticed the sharp downward trajectory of the line immediately after the hard stop on the forward stroke, the point of that downward wedge of line almost touches the water. I'm wondering if its wasted energy that could better utilized with different technique. Ideas?

Please use small words and short paragraphs.




... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
SkagitMiester is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-21-2019, 12:17 PM
Registered User
 
eriefisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Lower Grand River, Saugeen and everything else wet.
Posts: 801
Looking at the video where you stop the forward stroke your rod continues down until it recovers. I think this is what is pushing the line to the water. Maybe a higher stop so that the last rod movement is pushing the line in the intended direction? Is it wasted energy? What the hell do I know?? The fly got out there didn't it? I think as fly fisher(people) we over analyze everything when we should just be fishing.

Ugly cast catch fish too! So do ugly fisherman!

Dan
SkagitMiester and Llandogo like this.

Which way to the river?
eriefisher is online now  
post #3 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-21-2019, 01:58 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Clearwater, Ronde, OP
Posts: 597
I would say that this a loss of energy Tim. But not one that is easily remedied. I can see this rod response in many of my own casts on video and am still happy with the results and line speed of the cast.

Stopping earlier may translate to that energy going into the cast, but does it also shorten your stroke length and mitigate any added benefit? I think so.

A couple more observations on it:

-A deep loading rod with strong tip really seems to be reflected in this type of rebound.

- This points to the benefit of low-friction mono as a running line. The friction from thick, pvc-type lines seems to keep the head "attached" to the rod so these rebounds open the loop permanently and kill the cast -- whereas with mono, the negative side effects do not seem to matter.

Just my thoughts.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SkagitMiester View Post
Doing Splash and go casts with a Skagit setup, I came across this video clip @ 0:15 and noticed the sharp downward trajectory of the line immediately after the hard stop on the forward stroke, the point of that downward wedge of line almost touches the water. I'm wondering if its wasted energy that could better utilized with different technique. Ideas?

Please use small words and short paragraphs.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxEMtLfyVps
fisshman26 likes this.
Attack is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-21-2019, 06:44 PM
Registered User
 
eriefisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Lower Grand River, Saugeen and everything else wet.
Posts: 801
I was looking again, Bruce has got me hooked on these slow motion casts, and it looks like maybe 3ft of line outside the guides? What if you were to pull the head a little closer to the rod tip. At least that energy might get transferred directly to the head. Just spit balling.

Dan
SkagitMiester likes this.

Which way to the river?
eriefisher is online now  
post #5 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-21-2019, 07:39 PM
Administrator
 
GR8LAKES FLYER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: All Rivers flowing into Georgian Bay
Posts: 16,457
I wanna know how you slow down time so it looks like it's in slow motion ... just like the Matrix !!
Ah, now I get it !! You're the "Line Speed Jedi" !!!


Mike

Have you Swung a Spey Fly today ??
GR8LAKES FLYER is offline  
post #6 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-22-2019, 08:48 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
SkagitMiester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Deschutes
Posts: 2,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attack View Post

Stopping earlier may translate to that energy going into the cast, but does it also shorten your stroke length and mitigate any added benefit? I think so.

.
Thanks Zack, that makes sense to me. Particularly the length of stroke part. I appreciate the thoughtful response.
Wetwader likes this.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
SkagitMiester is offline  
post #7 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-22-2019, 10:42 AM
Too far away
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 60
I experienced this also, but mainly on my Skagit setups. My thoughts about it, put in -maybe not satisfying- words:
The short compact head with a lot of mass in the rear part of the Skagit head, combined with a short tip, resulting in a less sticky anchor, and maybe a microsecond faster forward stroke than needed, just before a blown anchor.
In general, I would say, the mass distribution and complete mass in Skagit setups is the main problem for this case for “splash and go” casts. The heavy mass in the rear part is not accelerated or straightened enough, before the anchor stick is lost. That’s a difference to waterborne casts with the same setup. And of course a difference to a Scandi head for touch and go casts.
I use longer and lighter tips, 12’ up to 15’, on my Skagit heads to cure it as far as possible and get more Scandi-like loops and also presentation from the beginning. And I have to go down in the weight with the Skagit Belly when touch and go casts would be the main thing. The higher speed of touch and go casts with no adaption in accelerated mass could be dangerous for the rod.
For me, the main question is, is the heavy mass of the Skagit needed for touch and go casts?
One could also say, the rod is overloaded for touch and go casts and to wait for more anchor stick could be even worse, also for the rod. It’s a narrow path.

In principle it’s a loss of energy from the beginning, to use Skagit setups for touch and go casts. But there is still enough left with a Skagit. The pure mass of the Skagit setup cures it, when doing touch and go casts.
As long as the whole mass of the Skagit head, including tip, straightens, the rear end is straightening too. This can be seen very well on your video.
Also the loop is closing up and gets narrow very nice, what also can be seen on your video.

I would experiment with different lengths of lighter tips, maybe also on lighter Skagit heads and work on a little bit longer anchor stick. Or try a lot more Scandi lines for touch and go casts?
Without changing your forum name��
SkagitMiester likes this.

Time is running... A little bit of work, a little bit married, fishing, hunting... What else?

Last edited by Wetwader; 05-22-2019 at 01:20 PM.
Wetwader is offline  
post #8 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-22-2019, 11:21 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,918
That is very good cast Tim! Smooth acceleration prodeces straight line path. You seem to use about two feet overhang so it is mostly light running/shooting line what rod counter flex shoots down so there is not much energy. However it might accelerate line loop straightening speed more than necessary.

Esa
bender is online now  
post #9 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-22-2019, 11:24 AM
BULL DOG!!!!
 
fisshman26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: B.C.- trout and steelies
Posts: 1,573
Quote:
Originally Posted by eriefisher View Post
I was looking again, Bruce has got me hooked on these slow motion casts, and it looks like maybe 3ft of line outside the guides? What if you were to pull the head a little closer to the rod tip. At least that energy might get transferred directly to the head. Just spit balling.

Dan
Pulling in will make the rebound on the rod worse thatís why we hang the line so the real weight is outside the rod itself and makes the line feel lighter to the rod....try hanging a head an inch outside the the tip and switch cast it without shooting line then hang it two feet and do the same
SkagitMiester and eriefisher like this.

Bruce Kruk
________________

Team Gaelforce

Columbia river guide, lenssportfishing-bc.com
fisshman26 is online now  
post #10 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-22-2019, 11:51 AM
Registered User
 
gcarlson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: North Idaho/Montana/BC
Posts: 134
I have wondered this also when watching distance casters who have a long rod tip path in order to develop ultimate line speed. Your stop in your video is at about the 9 o:clock position so that the rod tip rebound will project the line downward rather than in the direction of the cast if the stop is at 11 o:clock. Your cast is efficient because you are moving the fulcrum point forward with your top hand while maintaining the harmony with the lower hand pull for the power.

So Iíve decided that it is a small loss of straight line tip path in the rebound which is compensated by the long stroke length which creates greater line speed than a shorter stroke with a stop with the rebound in the direction of the cast. However it is important to strive for the straight line tip path by maintaining the fulcrum movement straight forward to avoid an inefficient arched rod tip movement.

Just my thoughts and I could be wrong.
SkagitMiester likes this.
gcarlson is offline  
post #11 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-22-2019, 01:30 PM
Registered User
 
eriefisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Lower Grand River, Saugeen and everything else wet.
Posts: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisshman26 View Post
Pulling in will make the rebound on the rod worse thatís why we hang the line so the real weight is outside the rod itself and makes the line feel lighter to the rod....try hanging a head an inch outside the the tip and switch cast it without shooting line then hang it two feet and do the same
I understand that but was thinking that if he was to put more line out of the guides it wouldn't help either but bringing it in a bit may have some advantages. I think it will take a couple of changes to improve the situation. That rod looks to really flex all the way to the cork with his set up.

I think everyone can benefit from this conversation.

Dan
fisshman26 and SkagitMiester like this.

Which way to the river?
eriefisher is online now  
post #12 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-22-2019, 02:06 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,918
Using longer overhang it is possible to get more line speed out of straightening rod without making line loop wide when rod tip which turns more down can not pull actual line head down too much.

Esa
SkagitMiester likes this.
bender is online now  
post #13 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-22-2019, 04:15 PM
Registered User
 
ENSO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by eriefisher View Post
Looking at the video where you stop the forward stroke your rod continues down until it recovers. I think this is what is pushing the line to the water. .....
First thought: the rod is full flexing. Second thought: you are hitting the forward cast too hard. Third thought: full flexing rods should at one point during the forward cast feel 'effortless'.

Forth thought: Single Spey casting with a Skagit set up can be at the best of times a little clunky.

Fifth thought: That is an interesting video clip; thanks for sharing SM.


Off the top: 1. Slow down and give the D-loop another split second or two to form. 2. Do not drop the rod tip as you prepare the forward cast. 3. Load the rod on the forward cast but slow down so when the rod recovers and the forward cast unfolds, it feels like the rod is doing all the work.


Oddly enough I remember committing this casting fault with soft single-handers, especially specific bamboo rods but rarely if ever with a 2-hander. Sometimes I was able to correct the fault with more appropriate timing, other times not.

---------------------------------------

Incidentally, anybody remember the single-hand rods SAGE put out about 15+ years ago that were designed for hucking egg patterns with split-shot on the leader? The tip was thicker, presumably to reduce breakage from collisions with the split-shot weights.

I could not eliminate the tip-shake from the cast and neither could the SAGE rep. SAGE eventually discontinued that line of rods.
SkagitMiester likes this.

į

Science is not common sense. Much of it is devoted to a systematic documentation of what we do not know and understand.
ENSO is offline  
post #14 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-22-2019, 05:29 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: K
Posts: 177
You could probably get the same distance with a lob cast, AKA higher stop. But man, this is a great cast for windy days. Stays under the worst it.
SLSS and SkagitMiester like this.
Yardsale is online now  
post #15 of 28 (permalink) Unread 05-23-2019, 01:33 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: steelhead country
Posts: 1,273
Find a line...

… of the same weight, but one that has a 5 to 7 foot back taper and see what effect that has on the casting "droop".

Tim,
My main intent of replying here was to say that I really like your description in one of your most recent vids of "casting the D towards 4 o'clock (paraphrasing here), because it seems it should be easily understood and visualized by most anyone. Simple and effective, I think much more so than my usual phrase of "D-loop should be directed 45 degrees back off of the casting shoulder". I'm going to use it in future casting instructions if'n that's OK with you.
SLSS and SkagitMiester like this.

Riveraddict
Riveraddict is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Spey Pages forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in













Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do you try to influence when a loop forms? yoda1 Technique 54 11-08-2016 12:48 PM
ELF Running line:Back-end loop moethedog Tackle 6 05-21-2011 06:41 PM
How do I make a loop in a shooting line? moethedog Tackle 10 11-22-2008 09:41 PM
V loop questions myfishcasting Technique 12 09-18-2008 09:47 AM
Spey loop different comared to single hand loop? Skycries57 Technique 3 10-10-2004 01:41 AM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome