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post #151 of 165 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 12:04 PM
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15' B&W Powerlite 7/9 and 16' Powerlite 8/9

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For fishing my favorite outfit is the 16ft 9wght from Gaelforce with a 83 Gaelforce 9wght line cut into a head
Naive question, but as long as you two are responding! So the 16' 9wt from Gaelforce is probably most equivalent in grain window to an 8wt Burkheimer or Meiser, and the B&W 7/9 would be most equivalent to a 6/8?
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post #152 of 165 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 12:22 PM
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Nah, I would say they don't correlate at all at least in the B&W's. Bruce may have different thoughts but I would say the same about the Gaelforce rods. They are far more powerful than the US versions actually, so that old Euro to US translation doesn't hold up for these.

Grain weights that the rod can handle is a halfway decent comparison of a rods power I think. So I would scrap what is labeled on the rod, as it is arbitrary.

In that Gaelforce 63' you like an 8/9 (700 grains) n the Burkie, and on the 15' 7/9 powerlite a 9/10 (750 grains) or even 10/11 (800 grains) of the same line is great.
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post #153 of 165 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 12:32 PM
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Nah, I would say they don't correlate at all at least in the B&W's. Bruce may have different thoughts but I would say the same about the Gaelforce rods. They are far more powerful than the US versions actually, so that old Euro to US translation doesn't hold up for these.

Grain weights that the rod can handle is a halfway decent comparison of a rods power I think. So I would scrap what is labeled on the rod, as it is arbitrary.

In that Gaelforce 63' you like an 8/9 (700 grains) n the Burkie, and on the 15' 7/9 powerlite a 9/10 (750 grains) or even 10/11 (800 grains) of the same line is great.
I concur
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post #154 of 165 (permalink) Old 06-01-2019, 05:33 AM
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Thank you for your responses, Attack and fisshman. The casting matters.
I guess, it’s informative for many of us, to have some feedback from competition casters and their experiences.
Very much appreciated.
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Time is running... A little bit of work, a little bit married, fishing, hunting... What else?
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post #155 of 165 (permalink) Old 06-01-2019, 09:34 AM
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Thank you for your responses, Attack and fisshman. The casting matters.
I guess, it’s informative for many of us, to have some feedback from competition casters and their experiences.
Very much appreciated.
I agree, learned a lot from both of you!
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post #156 of 165 (permalink) Old 06-02-2019, 02:25 PM
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Naive question, but as long as you two are responding! So the 16' 9wt from Gaelforce is probably most equivalent in grain window to an 8wt Burkheimer or Meiser, and the B&W 7/9 would be most equivalent to a 6/8?


Not at all. I cast a B&W 15 " 7/9, briefly, it is a very powerful rod. Considerably more stiff than a sweetheart HC 15 6/8. To give you an idea of the power - it was lined with a WA55 10/11 and 20lbs thin mono when I cast it. It had been lined with an 10/11 weight Aerohead also (~810 grains) that I did not get to cast. Obviously rigged for distance shooting. Anyhow, the closest comparison- in terms of power- and I have cast is a Sage 15' 9# TCR.
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post #157 of 165 (permalink) Old 06-03-2019, 12:24 PM
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Steve Rajeff ?



Yeah those three previous top-ten finishes, hardly worth mentioning



Pretty much every competition caster I've ever talked to has emphasized the centrality of fundamentals. They may have different interpretations of execution, but all emphasize fundamentals. There is a subtle distinction here. Not everything you read in books is representative of 'fundamentals', some are technique choices.

FWIW I am not a competition caster in the sense that Attack is a competition caster, but I've been in a few competitions. Somebody has to bring up the rear, might as well be me.





What you want is the anchor and forward loop on that cast.
Sure - many different things that work, and Im quite sure every author on speycasting I've read to this point, describe in their own words the same basic fundamental technique. They tend to emphasis the three fundamentals, are particularly keen that anything less or more than 180˚ is incorrect or faulty. There aren't any tricks mentioned, and never have they condoned crossing over the anchor as technique or on purpose, which is the reason I ask.

Beyond that - yeah, there are many small things that work; Low sweep, high, "pause" or no, more top hand, equal top and bottom, various ways to shape a loop...
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post #158 of 165 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 10:39 PM Thread Starter
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Continuation

A couple things. I may be wrong and hopefully Bruce will chime in if I am. As far as I know much of Bruce's Casting influence comes from James Chalmers, the Galeforce comp casting team, which includes Gerard Downey, and at one time Travis Johnson.

When I first asked Bruce for where to get advice about my Casting he told me, anything by Robert Gillespie and James Chalmers.

I know Robert Gillespie is very well respected if you read anything he writes, which is very educational, he talks about James Chalmers and his excellent form as a caster and also mentions how knowledgeable Al Buhr is on the subject, not to mention Toft and others. Also, I know he has a close relationship with Zack Williams. They cast together and discuss technique differences and even differ slightly in certain aspects of the Spey cast.

So I trust what he says because I think for the most part he is in the know when it comes to what the elite casters are doing.

As far as Zach Williams, I have been in contact with him on Speypages private messages throughout the years, when he was Casting at Speyorama with a 15' #10 fishing rod and kept track of his progress. Zach is obviously very gifted but I know he has put his time in on the water to go from obscurity to breaking into the finals at SOR with big boy casts that rival Travis Johnson Et Al. Also, he has zero tolerance for bullshixt so I trust him to only give only the facts. His demonstration at Poppy's Clave totally redirected me in my long line casting journey and now I know exactly what I need to do to advance in my long line casting.

Another thing I will ad to this discussion is that I remember a statement by Greg Bencivenga who was a finalist this year at SOR, at a time when he commented that he was casting further than ever with less energy than ever, and that has always stuck with me as he is known for his exquisite technique and knowledge.

The other thing I will ad in reply to Vics statement about casting over the anchor is that it seems to be very evident in Brian Styskals Speycraft project video. I have watched this thing for the past 7 years without seeing that. When I finally started to put this into practice and got the revelation for myself I thought, Gee, I wonder how many spey lines have been chopped and whittled in the name of better turnover if I and others had known and understood this technique.


The question I have is this: After watching quite a few forward casting strokes by the best castors in the world including those mentioned above, and including Tellis, Tommy Aarkvisla, Sakke, and others including Speyorama finalists I see where the majority of the bottom hand movement in the forward cast seems to come during the translation part of the cast where both hands are traveling down powerfully together as seen in Bruce's Snakeroll, but there are a few that do pull up more towards the armpit or upper top arm at the end of the cast as Vic is promoting and it works best for me. I seem to have a better cast myself when I use this technique but my initial thought is that it gives me a longer casting stroke. Tellis seems to do this also, so obviously he is copying me.

The other thing I will mention is that I was talking with Gene Oswald, another top ten SOR mens finalist and he mentioned that some of the casters like Tim Arsenault manufactured tremendous line speed and narrow, pointy loops While others like Johnson had a little more of a Tank Track shape. The tank track guys seem to eek out the pointy loop guys at SOR. It was an open ended discussion and Gene is such a gentleman that he presented it as food for thought and we did not have the time to go deep so I didn't query. So I would like to hear thoughts on bottom hand use, rotation, loop shape.

The last question I have is in regards to drift. High is good. How about drifting back before the forward cast? Inevitable? Necessary? a little is ok? or possibly done wrong it can lead to trouble?

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

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post #159 of 165 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 01:04 PM
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The last question I have is in regards to drift. High is good. How about drifting back before the forward cast? Inevitable? Necessary? a little is ok? or possibly done wrong it can lead to trouble?
Tim, I see that rising rod handle and hands up is good for higher force production on following delivery cast. In theory rod tip should be lovered to compensate when gravity pulls the line down so rod leg stay straighter before delivery.

Drift can also lengthen line acceleration path but there are Spey distance competition casters who don't need to drift because they finish back cast stroke farther.

There is ICSF Salmon distance where max 55g (848gr) floating shooting head, which for some competitors can be over 70ft, is overhead cast and there high stop on back cast is essential so that line straightens best before delivery.

Esa
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post #160 of 165 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 03:17 PM
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Tim..... way to many variables to give a specific answer as physical traits of the caster such as myself at 5ft 6 and the Norwegians going as tall as 6ft 9 make a huge difference as well as conditions and water depth etc all play a part but I think what you are looking for might be that the bottom hand always ‘starts’ the bend in the rod so as to give the rod the deepest bend......this has been stressed to me over and over by my mentors until I finally started doing it about 30% of the time lol......that and the stop of the rod with the top hand to release the stored energy.
Make sense?

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post #161 of 165 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 08:26 PM Thread Starter
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bottom hand

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Tim..... way to many variables to give a specific answer as physical traits of the caster such as myself at 5ft 6 and the Norwegians going as tall as 6ft 9 make a huge difference as well as conditions and water depth etc all play a part but I think what you are looking for might be that the bottom hand always ‘starts’ the bend in the rod so as to give the rod the deepest bend......this has been stressed to me over and over by my mentors until I finally started doing it about 30% of the time lol......that and the stop of the rod with the top hand to release the stored energy.
Make sense?
By starting the bend in the rod do you mean that the bottom hand moves first? I like the idea but I'm trying to wrap my mind around it.
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post #162 of 165 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 09:37 PM
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By starting the bend in the rod do you mean that the bottom hand moves first? I like the idea but I'm trying to wrap my mind around it.
Yes bottom hand first
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post #163 of 165 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 02:50 PM
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A couple things. I may be wrong and hopefully Bruce will chime in if I am. As far as I know much of Bruce's Casting influence comes from James Chalmers, the Galeforce comp casting team, which includes Gerard Downey, and at one time Travis Johnson.

When I first asked Bruce for where to get advice about my Casting he told me, anything by Robert Gillespie and James Chalmers.

I know Robert Gillespie is very well respected if you read anything he writes, which is very educational, he talks about James Chalmers and his excellent form as a caster and also mentions how knowledgeable Al Buhr is on the subject, not to mention Toft and others. Also, I know he has a close relationship with Zack Williams. They cast together and discuss technique differences and even differ slightly in certain aspects of the Spey cast.

So I trust what he says because I think for the most part he is in the know when it comes to what the elite casters are doing.

As far as Zach Williams, I have been in contact with him on Speypages private messages throughout the years, when he was Casting at Speyorama with a 15' #10 fishing rod and kept track of his progress. Zach is obviously very gifted but I know he has put his time in on the water to go from obscurity to breaking into the finals at SOR with big boy casts that rival Travis Johnson Et Al. Also, he has zero tolerance for bullshixt so I trust him to only give only the facts. His demonstration at Poppy's Clave totally redirected me in my long line casting journey and now I know exactly what I need to do to advance in my long line casting.

Another thing I will ad to this discussion is that I remember a statement by Greg Bencivenga who was a finalist this year at SOR, at a time when he commented that he was casting further than ever with less energy than ever, and that has always stuck with me as he is known for his exquisite technique and knowledge.

The other thing I will ad in reply to Vics statement about casting over the anchor is that it seems to be very evident in Brian Styskals Speycraft project video. I have watched this thing for the past 7 years without seeing that. When I finally started to put this into practice and got the revelation for myself I thought, Gee, I wonder how many spey lines have been chopped and whittled in the name of better turnover if I and others had known and understood this technique.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfKyrHkpl7Y


The question I have is this: After watching quite a few forward casting strokes by the best castors in the world including those mentioned above, and including Tellis, Tommy Aarkvisla, Sakke, and others including Speyorama finalists I see where the majority of the bottom hand movement in the forward cast seems to come during the translation part of the cast where both hands are traveling down powerfully together as seen in Bruce's Snakeroll, but there are a few that do pull up more towards the armpit or upper top arm at the end of the cast as Vic is promoting and it works best for me. I seem to have a better cast myself when I use this technique but my initial thought is that it gives me a longer casting stroke. Tellis seems to do this also, so obviously he is copying me.

The other thing I will mention is that I was talking with Gene Oswald, another top ten SOR mens finalist and he mentioned that some of the casters like Tim Arsenault manufactured tremendous line speed and narrow, pointy loops While others like Johnson had a little more of a Tank Track shape. The tank track guys seem to eek out the pointy loop guys at SOR. It was an open ended discussion and Gene is such a gentleman that he presented it as food for thought and we did not have the time to go deep so I didn't query. So I would like to hear thoughts on bottom hand use, rotation, loop shape.

The last question I have is in regards to drift. High is good. How about drifting back before the forward cast? Inevitable? Necessary? a little is ok? or possibly done wrong it can lead to trouble?

Couple of thoughts for you Tim:

I pull upward on the forward stroke and think I am in the minority. Trying to explain the physics of something that I don't fully understand would be foolish though. I can tell you that these things came from not being afraid to experiment and throw some really shitty casts with the hopes of finding something new that helped.

Loop shape? I would say your observations are correct but it is not something I worry about.

In my experience, trying to drift back is difficult to impossible to accomplish with any benefit with a two-hand rod. Your elbow will likely leave your side to do so -- causing you to lose your linear alignment and causing all sorts of tracking issues -- it is not a repeatable process. Or, if your top arm closes narrower than a right angle when your hand goes back, you lose all strength.


I am enjoying pondering these things ... keeps from getting in a rut.
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post #164 of 165 (permalink) Old 06-23-2019, 12:09 PM Thread Starter
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Couple of thoughts for you Tim:

I pull upward on the forward stroke and think I am in the minority. Trying to explain the physics of something that I don't fully understand would be foolish though. I can tell you that these things came from not being afraid to experiment and throw some really shitty casts with the hopes of finding something new that helped.

Loop shape? I would say your observations are correct but it is not something I worry about.

In my experience, trying to drift back is difficult to impossible to accomplish with any benefit with a two-hand rod. Your elbow will likely leave your side to do so -- causing you to lose your linear alignment and causing all sorts of tracking issues -- it is not a repeatable process. Or, if your top arm closes narrower than a right angle when your hand goes back, you lose all strength.


I am enjoying pondering these things ... keeps from getting in a rut.
Excellent post Zack, plenty to chew on and this will keep me from getting off track as I try to progress. My goal is 150' with all four casts in SOR conditions. My immediate goal is 150' + at Poppy's, so I'm wanting to eliminate everything I don't need to worry about.

Oddly enough, I feel like my bests casts come when I drift forward, almost to the point of trunking, and leave the rotation for the very end of the forward cast and pulling upward with bottom hand at the end. If nothing else, the casts lay out straighter.

I quized a pretty good golfer about proper stroke and he said he delayed his rotation (on the drive) for as long as he possibly could, which was opposite of what I thought golfers tried to do. I don't golf, but I thought there were similarities in the forward stroke. So that's got me thinking too.

Thanks for the help.
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post #165 of 165 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by SkagitMiester View Post
A couple things. I may be wrong and hopefully Bruce will chime in if I am. As far as I know much of Bruce's Casting influence comes from James Chalmers, the Galeforce comp casting team, which includes Gerard Downey, and at one time Travis Johnson.

When I first asked Bruce for where to get advice about my Casting he told me, anything by Robert Gillespie and James Chalmers.

I know Robert Gillespie is very well respected if you read anything he writes, which is very educational, he talks about James Chalmers and his excellent form as a caster and also mentions how knowledgeable Al Buhr is on the subject, not to mention Toft and others. Also, I know he has a close relationship with Zack Williams. They cast together and discuss technique differences and even differ slightly in certain aspects of the Spey cast.

So I trust what he says because I think for the most part he is in the know when it comes to what the elite casters are doing.

As far as Zach Williams, I have been in contact with him on Speypages private messages throughout the years, when he was Casting at Speyorama with a 15' #10 fishing rod and kept track of his progress. Zach is obviously very gifted but I know he has put his time in on the water to go from obscurity to breaking into the finals at SOR with big boy casts that rival Travis Johnson Et Al. Also, he has zero tolerance for bullshixt so I trust him to only give only the facts. His demonstration at Poppy's Clave totally redirected me in my long line casting journey and now I know exactly what I need to do to advance in my long line casting.

Another thing I will ad to this discussion is that I remember a statement by Greg Bencivenga who was a finalist this year at SOR, at a time when he commented that he was casting further than ever with less energy than ever, and that has always stuck with me as he is known for his exquisite technique and knowledge.

The other thing I will ad in reply to Vics statement about casting over the anchor is that it seems to be very evident in Brian Styskals Speycraft project video. I have watched this thing for the past 7 years without seeing that. When I finally started to put this into practice and got the revelation for myself I thought, Gee, I wonder how many spey lines have been chopped and whittled in the name of better turnover if I and others had known and understood this technique.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfKyrHkpl7Y


The question I have is this: After watching quite a few forward casting strokes by the best castors in the world including those mentioned above, and including Tellis, Tommy Aarkvisla, Sakke, and others including Speyorama finalists I see where the majority of the bottom hand movement in the forward cast seems to come during the translation part of the cast where both hands are traveling down powerfully together as seen in Bruce's Snakeroll, but there are a few that do pull up more towards the armpit or upper top arm at the end of the cast as Vic is promoting and it works best for me. I seem to have a better cast myself when I use this technique but my initial thought is that it gives me a longer casting stroke. Tellis seems to do this also, so obviously he is copying me.

The other thing I will mention is that I was talking with Gene Oswald, another top ten SOR mens finalist and he mentioned that some of the casters like Tim Arsenault manufactured tremendous line speed and narrow, pointy loops While others like Johnson had a little more of a Tank Track shape. The tank track guys seem to eek out the pointy loop guys at SOR. It was an open ended discussion and Gene is such a gentleman that he presented it as food for thought and we did not have the time to go deep so I didn't query. So I would like to hear thoughts on bottom hand use, rotation, loop shape.

The last question I have is in regards to drift. High is good. How about drifting back before the forward cast? Inevitable? Necessary? a little is ok? or possibly done wrong it can lead to trouble?
Tim,
You have good points to discuss, Im just catching up with you here.

First - about casting over the anchor, or IOW when you fail to bring the fly far upstream enough that you resort to cast using one of the different "techniques" we've been shown here to get around it (and there are a few.) I just avoid doing all of that simply by placing the fly/anchor where it ought to be (ideally) in the first place. And. I've cut lines in the past just never cut a line to "dial" it in to a rod, or into a shooting head with mono for distance.

On tanks tracks - also known as a climbing loop - it is the better way to cast. It should not be confused with a cast where the fly leg is seen raising up in the air. Climbing loops are more efficient and create casts that are IMO the prettiest to watch. It is my preference over tight loops and rod rebound/recovery. Re-bound? Is that what we're calling it?

Anyhow- you can use a climbing loop in all the casts that you would want to make - in forming the d loop in spey cast, and any false casts by using drift as the "mechanism" to do so...


Vic.
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