Skagit Casting Made Easy - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 04:15 PM Thread Starter
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Skagit Casting Made Easy

Had a beautiful day over the Thanksgiving break to fish with my son and make a Skagit Casting Made Easy video. Thanks for watching.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 06:12 PM
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I really find your videos helpful. Question. Are you focusing at all on the rod tip either staying level or moving from lower to higher during the sweep or does it just happen naturally. Since watching another video you did on the double Spey along with watch skagit masters 1 I will occasionally experiment casting this way. The problem that I have is blowing anchors because I feel like the rod already starts high, there is no where else to go. I did pick up on how you lean the rod back over your shoulder toward the water rather than closer to vertical so perhaps this is my problem. Either way, your videos have been instrumental in my casting progress so thank you.
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-26-2018, 12:04 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Upstateonthefly View Post
I really find your videos helpful. Question. Are you focusing at all on the rod tip either staying level or moving from lower to higher during the sweep or does it just happen naturally. Since watching another video you did on the double Spey along with watch skagit masters 1 I will occasionally experiment casting this way. The problem that I have is blowing anchors because I feel like the rod already starts high, there is no where else to go. I did pick up on how you lean the rod back over your shoulder toward the water rather than closer to vertical so perhaps this is my problem. Either way, your videos have been instrumental in my casting progress so thank you.
Thanks Upstate. With this cast, I try to keep it high and pretty much level with the water all the way around. The slower I sweep the less I blow anchors. I blew quite a few myself at the beginning of the video and you could also see that sometimes I had to pause and wait for my D loop to catch up before the forward cast but the slower I sweep the closer I can come to doing it in one continuous motion.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-26-2018, 01:46 PM
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Well done

This is a very nice video. His setup, although not quite what I would prefer, works reasonably well. I would just like to point out a few unmentioned things the beginner might take note of.

On the views taken off caster #1's left shoulder, note the line on the water drifts extremely close to the caster's legs before the start of the sweep. The "out & around" sweep is really upstream, out & around, resulting in close to 360 of sweep. This goes along with Al Bhur's common question "how can I make the rod do more of the work , so I don't have to" also Ed ward's thing about do not creep before starting the sweep. It makes the most out of the sweep, something I do all the time on a DS cast.

The water was moving pretty fast & I was unable to ascertain exactly where "point P" was before he started the sweep. Point P, to me, being the junction between the floating tip & the T-14. I try to time mine so that it will be in line with everything when I hit the power on the cast. The trick, as pointed out in Skagit Master #1, is to allow just enough time for that T-14 tip to dig in enough to provide a good solid anchor so as not to blow it on the cast, but not so much it takes extra effort to extract it either. When he got it right, he was making some very good casts.

The path of the rod tip doesn't matter, as long as it doesn't drop during the sweep. If it does, you'll see the D-loop drop a foot or more line into the water on the sweep. If this happens, it results in a loss of momentum, energy. You can still make the cast, but it won't be optimum.

Another little tidbit. Don't strip off more line that you can cast. Notice his line came tight to the reel before the cast fell on the water.

Caster #1 kept his arms/ elbows in close to his body, the power being a pull of the bottom hand. Caster # 2 raised his arms & put too much upper arm in in the cast. He threw the rod at the fish, so to speak. Compare the results.

A word about this CMCL constant motion, constant load thing. If you are coming from a longer line casting discipline, you were probably told "you have to wait for the D-loop to come around" Plus you were pulling that D-loop off the water, creating that "white mouse" along the way & the mouse provided the load on the rod. It also slowed that D-loop down. Skagit casting, with the high sweep changes all of that. The high out & around sweep is utilizing centrifugal force rather than the white mouse to load the rod. That abbreviated D-loop comes around a lot faster. Don't pause, don't slow down. If you do, the rod begins to upload & you have to make that up by "whacking" it harder! It's all in the timing & every rod reacts a little differently. You just have to experiment & get in tune with your rod.

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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-26-2018, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JDJones View Post
This is a very nice video. His setup, although not quite what I would prefer, works reasonably well. I would just like to point out a few unmentioned things the beginner might take note of.

On the views taken off caster #1's left shoulder, note the line on the water drifts extremely close to the caster's legs before the start of the sweep. The "out & around" sweep is really upstream, out & around, resulting in close to 360 of sweep. This goes along with Al Bhur's common question "how can I make the rod do more of the work , so I don't have to" also Ed ward's thing about do not creep before starting the sweep. It makes the most out of the sweep, something I do all the time on a DS cast.

The water was moving pretty fast & I was unable to ascertain exactly where "point P" was before he started the sweep. Point P, to me, being the junction between the floating tip & the T-14. I try to time mine so that it will be in line with everything when I hit the power on the cast. The trick, as pointed out in Skagit Master #1, is to allow just enough time for that T-14 tip to dig in enough to provide a good solid anchor so as not to blow it on the cast, but not so much it takes extra effort to extract it either. When he got it right, he was making some very good casts.

The path of the rod tip doesn't matter, as long as it doesn't drop during the sweep. If it does, you'll see the D-loop drop a foot or more line into the water on the sweep. If this happens, it results in a loss of momentum, energy. You can still make the cast, but it won't be optimum.

Another little tidbit. Don't strip off more line that you can cast. Notice his line came tight to the reel before the cast fell on the water.

Caster #1 kept his arms/ elbows in close to his body, the power being a pull of the bottom hand. Caster # 2 raised his arms & put too much upper arm in in the cast. He threw the rod at the fish, so to speak. Compare the results.

A word about this CMCL constant motion, constant load thing. If you are coming from a longer line casting discipline, you were probably told "you have to wait for the D-loop to come around" Plus you were pulling that D-loop off the water, creating that "white mouse" along the way & the mouse provided the load on the rod. It also slowed that D-loop down. Skagit casting, with the high sweep changes all of that. The high out & around sweep is utilizing centrifugal force rather than the white mouse to load the rod. That abbreviated D-loop comes around a lot faster. Don't pause, don't slow down. If you do, the rod begins to upload & you have to make that up by "whacking" it harder! It's all in the timing & every rod reacts a little differently. You just have to experiment & get in tune with your rod.
This makes perfect sense. I didn't realize that the high out and around sweep didn't require the "white mouse" to load the rod. I think that because of this I was sweeping too hard and fast and blowing the anchor.
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-26-2018, 10:31 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDJones View Post
This is a very nice video. His setup, although not quite what I would prefer, works reasonably well. I would just like to point out a few unmentioned things the beginner might take note of.

On the views taken off caster #1's left shoulder, note the line on the water drifts extremely close to the caster's legs before the start of the sweep. The "out & around" sweep is really upstream, out & around, resulting in close to 360 of sweep. This goes along with Al Bhur's common question "how can I make the rod do more of the work , so I don't have to" also Ed ward's thing about do not creep before starting the sweep. It makes the most out of the sweep, something I do all the time on a DS cast.

The water was moving pretty fast & I was unable to ascertain exactly where "point P" was before he started the sweep. Point P, to me, being the junction between the floating tip & the T-14. I try to time mine so that it will be in line with everything when I hit the power on the cast. The trick, as pointed out in Skagit Master #1, is to allow just enough time for that T-14 tip to dig in enough to provide a good solid anchor so as not to blow it on the cast, but not so much it takes extra effort to extract it either. When he got it right, he was making some very good casts.

The path of the rod tip doesn't matter, as long as it doesn't drop during the sweep. If it does, you'll see the D-loop drop a foot or more line into the water on the sweep. If this happens, it results in a loss of momentum, energy. You can still make the cast, but it won't be optimum.

Another little tidbit. Don't strip off more line that you can cast. Notice his line came tight to the reel before the cast fell on the water.

Caster #1 kept his arms/ elbows in close to his body, the power being a pull of the bottom hand. Caster # 2 raised his arms & put too much upper arm in in the cast. He threw the rod at the fish, so to speak. Compare the results.

A word about this CMCL constant motion, constant load thing. If you are coming from a longer line casting discipline, you were probably told "you have to wait for the D-loop to come around" Plus you were pulling that D-loop off the water, creating that "white mouse" along the way & the mouse provided the load on the rod. It also slowed that D-loop down. Skagit casting, with the high sweep changes all of that. The high out & around sweep is utilizing centrifugal force rather than the white mouse to load the rod. That abbreviated D-loop comes around a lot faster. Don't pause, don't slow down. If you do, the rod begins to upload & you have to make that up by "whacking" it harder! It's all in the timing & every rod reacts a little differently. You just have to experiment & get in tune with your rod.
Thanks JD. Excellent commentary. Makes a great article to go with the video. I appreciate it a lot.
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... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-26-2018, 10:37 PM Thread Starter
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This makes perfect sense. I didn't realize that the high out and around sweep didn't require the "white mouse" to load the rod. I think that because of this I was sweeping too hard and fast and blowing the anchor.
That's a good point. I'd like to know how it goes when you try it again without the mouse. Good luck.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 09:21 AM
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Thanks so much for such a helpful video with honest explanation, really helpful for me as I am practicing and learning.
Keep 'em coming!
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 11:01 AM
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That's a good point. I'd like to know how it goes when you try it again without the mouse. Good luck.
I think it's funny- there's such a macho edge to spey casting the way it's presented, blaring music, slow mo of jet sleds and peeling line. I was reminded again this fall at Poppy's clave, it's about timing, and ease, and letting the rod do the work.

I think your mention of Whitney's advice, To make a pretty cast, is spot on.

The first time I heard the martini glass analogy made was in a presentation by Bruce Barry. I've heard it from others since, but I think it's exactly what you're talking about- that rod tip tracing the path of the rim of a martini glass.

Good stuff. Thanks.
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 11:57 AM
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white mouse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Upstateonthefly View Post
This makes perfect sense. I didn't realize that the high out and around sweep didn't require the "white mouse" to load the rod. I think that because of this I was sweeping too hard and fast and blowing the anchor.
Like many of you, I was taught to utilize the white mouse. One of the things I discovered, when casting like that, was the closer to the water you made the sweep, the greater the load from the mouse. I got to where I was sweeping so low to the water I began refering to it as the white rat.

But then I also discovered a couple other fallacies with that technique. #1. since you are starting the sweep so low, the incline up into firing position sometimes becomes quite radical. #2. when you are doing a DS in fast water, you have to sweep faster than the current speed to get any white mouse at all. And the faster the water, the faster you have to sweep.

RE: blowing anchors.
If you go back & watch Skagit Master #1, Ed suggests a count of 1/1000, 2/1000, or something like that, to give the tip a chance to dig in a bit & provide a solid anchor, before starting the sweep on a DS

The high out & around sweep utilizing centrifugal force is unaffected by current speed, so your sweep is the same regardless. You want more load? Sweep a little faster. But be for warned. The faster you sweep, the faster that D-loop is coming around & the more critical the timing becomes.
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 12:16 PM
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Good casts Tim. You can find a vid of Dec Hogan on the McKenzie river doing high sweeps similar to what you're showing here. He isn't skagit casting per say - looks like a floating line in the vid - but the high sweeps that you're demonstrating are very clear. You'll see plenty of spray on the water too. BUT just notice the distance at which he is casting/fishing though.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 03:28 PM
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Good collection of tips and hints

I've experimented with dropping the rod tip vertically after the lift-over, properly timed with the instantaneous start of a lower but level sweep.

This throws a larger loop (with greater momentum) outside the lay-down path, and creates a sweep where the line remaining in the air is pulled at right angles to the line remaining in the water (as opposed to ripping it upward). The effect of this detail reduces dragging the anchor, but still allows it to pivot into firing alignment. I believe it also wastes less energy than creating a rooster tail of spray.

Watching the shape of this outward-bowed loop helps you to maintain continuous tension (a good thing)--if it loses shape, you've lost (or worse, over-applied!) tension (bad thing).

Try a few things, see what works with your equipment and casting style.
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 04:21 PM
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Basics work.

The white mouse doesn't "load the rod" per say. A sweep that is initiated slowly gradually accelerating into the d loop will gradually throw a larger spray and so the mouse is/can be used merely a visual indicator of [good] form. Loading the rod and attempting to maintain the load is - in my opinion - the single biggest misconception in casting skagit heads. Much better simply to learn the basics ( ie repositioning the line into a d-loop with minimal anchor that is 180˚out(singular direction))and to spot personalized styles of doing things.

Sorry to mention - I've done low sweeps, out over the water and around to the casting shoulder for as long as I can remember - it is what I learned casting extended bellies along the way and naturally crossed-over to compact heads too. I don't see it as a skagit casting trait at all. If anything - compacted tapers/ heads with their short lengths actually attenuate the out and around sweep.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 04:27 PM
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On shooting heads-

What is wrong with a little, or lots of spray anyway???

I see a plenty of vids showing half-hearted lifts where the fly skips on the surface throwing out spray and lot's of plashy snap-t casts, mouse ripping up the water rather well...
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 07:45 PM
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you can get away with a lot, until you start casting the big uglies. That's where the pavement meets the road.
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