Overhead drill to improve bottom hand use. - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-08-2018, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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Overhead drill to improve bottom hand use.

Our own gcarlson was kind enough to share some of his wisdom and expertise with me at the Clearwater Spey Clave. Some special people reached out to me to help me with my casting. I will have more videos soon with what I learned Sunday at the Redneckorama Spey competition.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-08-2018, 04:57 PM
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That video couldn't have come at a better time. I'm still working out the bugs with my 6-piece 15' CX, trying to get tighter loops. Bob helps me whenever we're out together, but if I'm not careful, I slip back into old habits. Hopefully, new habits will be developed with the help of that video.

50+ years of SH casting can be hard to overcome.

Thanks!

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Last edited by Bob Budesa; 10-09-2018 at 01:06 AM.
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-08-2018, 11:12 PM
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Good stuff Tim,

I am a bottom hand caster myself so all this made perfect sense here
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-09-2018, 06:01 AM
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Sorry, but I don't get it.

I have no doubt he's a great caster. Those loops were excellent and the rod was making all the right moves to make them.

The bit I don't get is the part about the top hand being a fulcrum. That hand is moving back and forward a little (translating, as it should) but it's not the pivot point for rod rotation for most of his stroke.

Watching that, I'm more than happy to imitate his action. Just not his explanation of that action. Thanks for sharing the video though.

Cheers,
Graeme

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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-09-2018, 08:54 AM
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I noticed the same thing with upper hand playing a stronger role. I focused more on the latter portion of video (lift, pivot, high rod stop, etc)
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-09-2018, 11:26 AM
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Stop and block:
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-09-2018, 03:44 PM
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If I had not watched other casters demonstrating an 'underhand' cast, this video would confuse the heck out of me.

The upper hand is travelling a greater distance than the lower hand.

A benchmark cast might have helped. Show an overhead cast with no bottom hand, and then follow with similar cast that uses lots of bottom hand.
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-09-2018, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks, Guys for the input and suggestions.

The main take away from the video for me was to push away with the bottom hand for the back cast and pull with the bottom hand for the forward cast, not allowing the line to touch down at any time, which to begin with, was quite a challenge.

I forgot to mention that the line Gary is tossing here has approximately 55' head length and if I remember correctly was a 10 weight line around over 700 grains so it did require a little more top hand help than the average scandi shooting head. Also, I don't know if you can see it well but Gary uses quite a bit of body power in the forward stroke.

One thing I am starting to figure out through trial and error and learning from others is that the top hand is very important too, and if you don't use it enough, even in underhand casting, the rod becomes less of a lever or even a spring and kind of becomes a hinge. Which I clearly illustrate in the clip below (it was an accident, I was pushing the boundaries)

Anyway guys, thanks again, and I hope this helps to clear up some confusion. Thanks, Gary for the great lesson. I'll be practicing this one!
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... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-09-2018, 06:57 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirdy View Post
Sorry, but I don't get it.

I have no doubt he's a great caster. Those loops were excellent and the rod was making all the right moves to make them.

The bit I don't get is the part about the top hand being a fulcrum. That hand is moving back and forward a little (translating, as it should) but it's not the pivot point for rod rotation for most of his stroke.

Watching that, I'm more than happy to imitate his action. Just not his explanation of that action. Thanks for sharing the video though.

Cheers,
Graeme
Thanks, Graeme for the feedback. I like hearing your point of view and keep a sharp eye out for your comments. Any input you have is always welcome in improving my casting and my videos.
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... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-09-2018, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SkagitMiester View Post
Thanks, Graeme for the feedback. I like hearing your point of view and keep a sharp eye out for your comments. Any input you have is always welcome in improving my casting and my videos.
Thanks for the vote of confidence.

It's rarely talked about and in fact I can't think of any of the great 2 hander casters who teach it, but when I watch those casters, I watch the action of the top hand. Not just the way it moves up and down, back and forward, but the angle it's taking throughout the cast and when that changes.

Why do I watch that in particular? Because in nearly every case, it's exactly the same motions as made during a good single hand cast. There's a good reason for that: the physics doesn't change just because the rod is longer. The hand still has to do the same things to make the rod translate and rotate in the correct sequence.

If we focus carefully on Gary's top hand ONLY, watching where it moves from and to, when it rotates and stops and what it does after it stops, you'll see the actions are exactly like those shown by (say) Simon Gawesworth. Simon is aiming his cast lower than Gary did, but you can see the hand and elbow movements are common to both casters.


Try it yourself: select any 2 hand caster you admire and watch what their upper hand is doing. Then find a video of a single hand caster you admire and watch them make a similar style of cast with one hand.

The difference in the 2 hander is that the bottom hand is used to make that rotation happen in a rod that is otherwise too unwieldy to handle with one hand.

When I'm using my own 2 handers, I make my casts by using my bottom hand to enable the same casting stroke I make with my single hand rods. (I probably should shoot a video to show how similar my own right-hand actions are between the two rod configurations. Soon, I promise ... )

I've actually found that when I'm teaching a person to cast a single hand rod, I can radically improve their loops if I ask them to hold the fighting butt with their other hand. It's amazing how doing that can reduce the over-rotation that a lot of casters have in their stroke.

Cheers,
Graeme
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-10-2018, 12:03 AM
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.... it's exactly the same motions as made during a good single hand cast.
That's probably at least part of the reason 2handing most often makes one a better singe hand caster.
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-10-2018, 02:08 AM
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That's probably at least part of the reason 2handing most often makes one a better singe hand caster.
... and vice versa, I think.

Some people who ask me to help them with their 2-handed casting have trouble with very wide loops, not going anywhere but going there fast. When I ask them to cast a single hand rod, their mistakes are the same, just smaller. To paraphrase Lefty, the two hander just lets them throw their mistakes further.

Conversely, the great single hand casters who are just starting out immediately understand what has to happen if I ask them to replicate their cast by watching their casting hand.

Basically, if you understand casting, you're likely to pick up the other rod style of casting quickly once the similarity is pointed out (if you haven't worked it out by yourself.)

The whole reason I joined this forum was to learn Spey casting for my upcoming MCI exam. In that exam, I need to perform (and teach) the main spey casts with a single hand rod. There is not much information out there on SH Spey, but the casts carry over directly between the rod types. I've picked up a heap here, so thanks guys.

Cheers,
Graeme
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-10-2018, 03:01 AM
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... but the casts carry over directly between the rod types.
Line follows the rod tip, no matter how many hands are involved.
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-10-2018, 12:42 PM
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His casting is good relaxed two hand casting! Andersson Underhand casting looks good but often for fishing it does not produce enough power! When we use two hand rods doesn't it make more sense to use both hands?

This video link shows how I practice DH overhead casting but I use same forward casting stroke for Spey as well where both hands produce about equal force. I cast 635gr 35ft shooting head using TFO Pandion 13'9'' #9 and on one set I usually do five or six casts which each consists one easy and one powerful and finish shooting the line. That force is good for about 110ft distance but it is not possible to use high force all the time because powerful stroke ruins the line loop when line is not released so there comes a need to do one false cast cycle to calm down the line. The back cast should have just enough speed to make the line loop straighten and this also increase time to do rod Drift so that actual launch casting stroke comes longer and wider. The back cast stop did not come as abrupt I thought I do but there is slowing down which starts the line loop.

Esa

https://youtube.com/watch?v=UQdumVTZm5Q
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-10-2018, 01:03 PM
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Thanks for the vote of confidence.

It's rarely talked about and in fact I can't think of any of the great 2 hander casters who teach it, but when I watch those casters, I watch the action of the top hand. Not just the way it moves up and down, back and forward, but the angle it's taking throughout the cast and when that changes.

Why do I watch that in particular? Because in nearly every case, it's exactly the same motions as made during a good single hand cast. There's a good reason for that: the physics doesn't change just because the rod is longer. The hand still has to do the same things to make the rod translate and rotate in the correct sequence.
This is why I recently had the epiphany that I need to work on casting my single hand rods with my left hand if I want to be a good left-hand on top caster. I realized I don't have the muscle memory in my top hand and despite the bottom hand's importance, I need to develop that to get rid of the "stranger" feeling when I try to cast off my left shoulder. Any one else feel this is a good way to proceed?

I would agree that my single-hand casting improved remarkably after I learned how to cast a two-hander.

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