Underhand Casting - Spey Pages
 30Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-03-2017, 08:19 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
SkagitMiester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Deschutes
Posts: 2,008
Underhand Casting

Here is my take on Underhand casting to inform beginers and others about the differences between Underhand "style" and othe styles of casting

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
SkagitMiester is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-03-2017, 08:56 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: PNW
Posts: 1,310
Great stuff, Tim. You make it look and sound extremely easy!
SkagitMiester likes this.
JonT is offline  
post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-03-2017, 09:17 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 345
Very nice video. I hope you find the time in the future to make more videos like this one that are more in-depth.

Can you flesh out the differences between Modern Scandi and Underhand a little more? And, as it's called Modern, I assume there are some benefits over the Underhand style. Can you shed a little light on that?
SkagitMiester likes this.
LowWaterDouble is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-04-2017, 09:32 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
SkagitMiester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Deschutes
Posts: 2,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowWaterDouble View Post
Very nice video. I hope you find the time in the future to make more videos like this one that are more in-depth.

Can you flesh out the differences between Modern Scandi and Underhand a little more? And, as it's called Modern, I assume there are some benefits over the Underhand style. Can you shed a little light on that?
Thanks for the feedback. I'll make that a project, maybe my next one. In the mean time if your interested in Modern Scandinavian casting Look up all of the posts made by Cloner and take a gander at his youtube channel. He is my modern scandi mentor. Thanks for your comment
Cloner likes this.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
SkagitMiester is offline  
post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-04-2017, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
SkagitMiester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Deschutes
Posts: 2,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonT View Post
Great stuff, Tim. You make it look and sound extremely easy!
I'll be around the Salem area a little bit between now and Xmas, holler if you want me to video some of your casts, I owe you, remember?

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
SkagitMiester is offline  
post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-04-2017, 11:24 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: SW Alaska, Bulkley Valley, Skeena
Posts: 1,946
You give impression that underhand casting involves floating head + long leader. It is far form true. All kinds of sinking head with short leader/tippet combination ( depending on a sinking rate and fly size) in 3 to 12 feet long can be deployed, e.g: F-H-I; F-I-S2, I-S2-S4 etc,

For F-H-I 8-12 feet is used , but for a higher sinking rate 3-6 feet.
SkagitMiester likes this.
sazan is offline  
post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-04-2017, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
SkagitMiester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Deschutes
Posts: 2,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by sazan View Post
You give impression that underhand casting involves floating head + long leader. It is far form true. All kinds of sinking head with short leader/tippet combination ( depending on a sinking rate and fly size) in 3 to 12 feet long can be deployed, e.g: F-H-I; F-I-S2, I-S2-S4 etc,

For F-H-I 8-12 feet is used , but for a higher sinking rate 3-6 feet.
Hi Sazan, thanks for watching the video and chiming in.
Just to clarify, I said that that is about all I personally know about underhand. I stated at the end that If you want to learn more, watch the Kaus Frimor Montana Trout Spey Clave video where he discusses fishing and casting with the single hand rod, floating head and long leader, sink tip lines, and sinking heads. Not to mention ariel mending, etc.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com

Last edited by SkagitMiester; 12-06-2017 at 06:38 PM.
SkagitMiester is offline  
post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-04-2017, 07:24 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North East
Posts: 2,153
Hey Tim

I really enjoy your videos. I smile quietly to myself when I'm watching some foreign video and I read your comments hah


If you and JonT get together I want to go! I'd fly out there just to have coffee with you two trouble makers
SkagitMiester likes this.
J.James is offline  
post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-05-2017, 09:33 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 46
I also love your videos, they are a breath of fresh air, your presentation style does not need any adjustment ,it's great that you have no ego and genuinely want to be informative. I have used the underhand style of casting for many years and your interpretation is excellent. I would like to make a few comments though. Firstly you seemed a little unsure of the benefits of the style. I will tell you why I do it. Firstly in my case it is the lack of physical effort required. Secondly it is an extremely accurate way of casting because of the vertical or near vertical forward cast. Also because it is only the monofilament leader that touches the water there is virtually no water disturbance, especially important when the water is low. The long leader improves presentation and I believe less llikely to frighten the fish in clear water conditions.You are quite correct in saying that a long monofilament leader is predominantly used for the style. Seventeen foot would really be a minimum depending on rod length, your height above the water and weight of fly. You can use polytips but they reduce the versatility of the leader sliding in the water surface. I think it's lack of popularity is probably the leader length as some struggle handling twenty odd feet of leader, get the cast wrong and you end up with wind knots. Underhand casters can be very pedantic with leader length.Chopping and changing depending on weight of fly, depth etc. The leader is the absolute vital element to this style. Incidentally I know Klaus Frimor, he was born with a fly rod in his hand. He is now probably the worlds foremost underhand caster, anbsolute maestro with a fly rod, superb fisherman and gentleman to boot.
LowWaterDouble and Bob Budesa like this.

Last edited by Llandogo; 12-05-2017 at 10:43 AM. Reason: Ommision
Llandogo is offline  
post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-05-2017, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
SkagitMiester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Deschutes
Posts: 2,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.James View Post
Hey Tim

I really enjoy your videos. I smile quietly to myself when I'm watching some foreign video and I read your comments hah


If you and JonT get together I want to go! I'd fly out there just to have coffee with you two trouble makers
ok, cool, lets stay in touch, maybe we can have the smallest mini clave on earth!

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
SkagitMiester is offline  
post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-05-2017, 09:43 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
SkagitMiester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Deschutes
Posts: 2,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Llandogo View Post
I also love your videos, they are a breath of fresh air, your presentation style does not need any adjustment ,it's great that you have no ego and genuinely want to be informative. I have used the underhand style of casting for many years and your interpretation is excellent. I would like to make a few comments though. Firstly you seemed a little unsure of the benefits of the style. I will tell you why I do it. Firstly in my case it is the lack of physical effort required. Secondly it is an extremely accurate way of casting because of the vertical or near vertical forward cast. Also because it is only the monofilament leader that touches the water there is virtually no water disturbance, especially important when the water is low. You are quite correct in saying that a long monofilament leader is predominantly used for the style. Seventeen foot would really be a minimum depending on rod length, your height above the water and weight of fly. You can use polytips but they reduce the versatility of the leader sliding in the water surface. I think it's lack of popularity is probably the leader length as some struggle handling twenty odd feet of leader, get the cast wrong and you end up with wind knots. Underhand casters can be very pedantic with leader length.
Chopping and changing depending on weight of fly, depth etc. The leader is the absolute vital element to this style. Incidentally I know Klaus Frimor, he was born with a fly rod in his hand. He is now probably the worlds foremost underhand caster, anbsolute maestro with a fly rod, superb fisherman and gentleman to boot.
Thank you very much! You make some great points and I appreciate this informative post. It will help people wanting to learn. Thanks for watching and commenting!

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
SkagitMiester is offline  
post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-05-2017, 02:24 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,919
When Göran Andersson made short shooting heads there was practically only DT line material available and their tapers were quite short only 5ft to 10ft and it is said why the leader became so long even 1.5 times the rod length. In my opinion the biggest difference between Underhand casting and other Spey casting styles is the back cast sweep to D-loop which is done using very upright rod. When the line head is short the sweep can be very slow. So Underhand casting is easy when casting pace is slow and also when there is no need to do the rod tip dip after the initial line lift because short line head stays in the air without the need to cast the D-loop upward. But there is the biggest hindrange - vulnerability to wind - which effects to the long, light and low energy line tip where only often weighted slim tube fly make some stability.

Esa
bender is offline  
post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-05-2017, 03:12 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,919
Modern Scandi Tapers were designed already at least 20 years ago. Perhaps shooting head evolution did happen many places around Scandinavia when Salmon anglers met but perhaps river Kymi was first or one of the first places? I know at least 20 years because one morning my wife said princess Diana had died when I was splicing a new shooting head after day before I had fished Kymi and had watched impressive casting. One guy did cast a longer shooting head which had longer front taper which he had made using five pieces from five different weight lines from 12wt to 5wt. His casting style was impressive and had faster back cast using low rod angle sweep and performance especially in wind was much better. Then few years later Finnish brand Vision had copied the tapers to shooting heads which I still have few and then later the casting style was named as Modern Scandi.

Esa
bender is offline  
post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-06-2017, 03:07 AM
Registered User
 
Cloner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Poland
Posts: 75
Interesting discussion I'll add my few cents I like to keep things logical and simple. So the way I see things is that there are three major styles of casting a double-handed rod with the use of an anchor (non overhead casting). I deliberately refrain from using the term spey casting as some purists would say underhand casting is not spey casting. The three styles are:

1. Underhand casting (originated by Göran Andersson).
Characteristics:
- shorter/fast-action rods
- short heads
- short casting stroke
- long leaders
- use of bottom hand alone to sweep and to propel the line into the forward cast
- maintaining high rod tip position from the lift into the forward cast
- slow and relaxed hand movements from the lift into the firing position
- short distance between top and bottom hands on the grip
- high line speed
- airborne anchors
BTW underhand style has its use with both SH and DH

2. Traditional spey casting
Characteristics:
- long/slower rods
- long lines
- long casting stroke
- use of top hand to sweep and to propel the line into the forward cast
- long distance between top and bottom hands on the grip (top hand closer to winding check than to the reel seat)

3. Modern spey casting
Anything between 1 and 2. Including Scandinavian casting and Skagit Casting. With the reservation that Scandinavian casting employs bottom hand as a dominant hand to propel the line into the forward cast.

Those are the simplest definitions I can come up with according to my understanding of the styles.

I can cast Skagit heads in Scandinavian style. I can cast mid and long belly lines in Scandinavian style. I can cast Scandi heads in traditional style. It's too much fun too keep it in strict boundaries.
bender and SkagitMiester like this.

Last edited by Cloner; 12-06-2017 at 07:57 AM.
Cloner is offline  
post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-06-2017, 07:41 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 46
Cloner has given an excellent précis of the different styles. He is certainly not Mr Average a very, very skilled caster and could cast a broom stick and chain with the Jack Rusell terrier still on the end. I would point though,no problem casting a skagit line Scandi style, but with the underhand style take care. You are condensing a lot of power into a short stroke and the weight is carried in the tip. I know modern rods are designed to take a wide range of weights but they do still break. I would recommend coming down a weight or two in line weight with a Skagit line although personally I prefer a line designed for the job.
bender, SkagitMiester and Cloner like this.
Llandogo is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Spey Pages forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Some Underhand Casting LowWaterDouble Casting Video 2 08-30-2016 01:29 AM
Spey casting vs Underhand casting. fredaevans Casting Video 14 04-23-2012 08:16 AM
Underhand Casting Okisutch Spey Basics 5 06-10-2007 03:08 PM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome