Proper Technique for Casting Large Flies, any flies. - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 04:45 PM Thread Starter
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Proper Technique for Casting Large Flies, any flies.

This was a lot of fun and a lot of work. Check it out!

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 07:54 PM
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Cool video SM. You keep on challenging yourself. Good for you. Nate
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 12:41 PM
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nice videos
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 03:58 PM
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Just some points...

... to consider regarding your last couple of posts. Number one, that the "art" of Spey-type casting is and continues to be a continually evolving process in both technique and equipment. And that an evolvement of one component can greatly effect other aspects of the casting game. As an example, consider that it wasn't that long ago that some "traditionalists" were claiming that "Speycasting" wasn't possible on rods less than 13' in length. I believe that what they REALLY meant was that it wouldn't be USEFUL on rods less than 13' and therefore there was no point in trying. Of course now, due to the advent of very short lines specifically designed for use on rods shorter than "Spey" sizes, the "short" game is not only do-able, it is in fact a very effective aspect of the Spey-type casting genre. Point two, that public disssemination of info regarding evolutionary changes isn't necessarily "up to speed" so to speak. Regarding that point, the "belief" that heavy flies couldn't be Single-Speyed, came about at a time when Long lines were long (70+ feet), Scandi lines only had fine front tapers, and bellies of Skagit lines were in excess of 30', NOT INCLUDING THE TIP! The belly that you were Single-Speying was notated at being 19' in length, which is shorter than RIO'S Skagit Short, which as is connotated, is/was a SHORT line for Skagit and a line that didn't come out until later, after some of the Skagit casting "beliefs" had already been formed. Believe me, prior to the "invention" of the shorter Skagit's (along with Scandi lines having more "aggressive" tapers) even though Skagit casting was THE method for casting large, and/or heavy flies, it was still more difficult than it is now. Last point, the adjustments you are/have been making to enable your casting while performing "Skagit casting killers" and Singlespeying a heavy fly, are the very things that are preventing you from "getting" Skagit casting. Now then, this last comment is not intended to influence your choice of casting style into "my way"... in fact I would suggest that your "aptitude" so to speak, is more suited to T&G styles of casting. But, I would like to say that it appears that you are in a process of retarding your learning curve for either casting approach by trying to master both at the same time. I have witnessed this circumstance with many, many casters, many, many times in my life and the results have rarely been of a positive nature. Just my two cents...

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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 08:52 PM
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To quote Jim Carey in the movie Dumb and Dumber...

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Originally Posted by Riveraddict View Post
... I would like to say that it appears that you are in a process of retarding your learning curve for either casting approach by trying to master both at the same time. I have witnessed this circumstance with many, many casters, many, many times in my life and the results have rarely been of a positive nature. Just my two cents...
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 11:06 PM
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Yeah, I hope...

... that I'm not coming across as an asshole, but I'm just throwing a "caution" out there about what COULD be happening. On the other hand, if'n an individual derives enjoyment and self-satisfaction through "proving" and experiencing every aspect of an endeavor personally, then my "advice" is not applicable. As long as one does that with the realization that they are most likely sacrificing other facets of the learning process by doing so. I can't even begin to express how many times I have seen casters extending the time frame of théir learning curve by mixing casting techniques across their respective boundaries and even after being advised of such over YEARS they still seem baffled at their lack of progression in casting.
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:19 AM Thread Starter
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Too much fun

I have been having a great time experimenting with my casting, in particular the heavy and waterlogged difficult to cast flies because they have exposed weaknesses in my technique. When my technique was correct, the big flies flew with minimal effort, when technique was incorrect the casts failed. It's as simple as that. I found it extremely rewarding.

I also learned that far more is possible than I would have thought if I had just settled for the status quo, at least the status quo in my mind. In the videos I am casting a shooting head that is much heavier than necessary for Skagit casting, I would not have thought it was even possible to make a respectable touch and go cast with it unless I had been challenged on my poor technique.

I listen to all sides of a debate, and decide through experimentation what works and what doesn't. The video provides pretty good evidence, and I know when I'm muscling a cast or not and do a pretty good job reporting my experiences.

As far as mixing styles I understand the that it would be better to stick to one style and master it. I would not recommend mixing styles if ones intention is to become a master in one style. What I have learned through playing with different styles though is what actually works and doesn't work and why for myself.

I have too much fun with the different types of casting.

I am happy to be done with this heavy fly phase and take what I have learned and apply it towards casting/ fishing more enjoyable flies because my technique, understanding and enjoyment have all drastically improved and I am very enthusiastic about continuing.

I'll probably drag out some long lines and sink tips and maybe heavy flies, or not. Its hard enough with a dry line. I hope to go to more distance casting competitions and get my ass kicked. Casting is a delightful hobby for me. I'm happy people are watching the videos and commenting about them. Its fun and exciting. Thanks everyone.
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... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:20 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riveraddict View Post
... that I'm not coming across as an asshole, but I'm just throwing a "caution" out there about what COULD be happening. On the other hand, if'n an individual derives enjoyment and self-satisfaction through "proving" and experiencing every aspect of an endeavor personally, then my "advice" is not applicable. As long as one does that with the realization that they are most likely sacrificing other facets of the learning process by doing so. I can't even begin to express how many times I have seen casters extending the time frame of théir learning curve by mixing casting techniques across their respective boundaries and even after being advised of such over YEARS they still seem baffled at their lack of progression in casting.
No worries Ed. I like it rough.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:48 AM
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As an example, consider that it wasn't that long ago that some "traditionalists" were claiming that "Speycasting" wasn't possible on rods less than 13' in length. I believe that what they REALLY meant was that it wouldn't be USEFUL on rods less than 13' and therefore there was no point in trying. Of course now, due to the advent of very short lines specifically designed for use on rods shorter than "Spey" sizes, the "short" game is not only do-able,
As a guy who studies the History of Speycasting, i just can't get anybody to understand that many years ago, short lines and short rods was all the rage, what everybody calls Traditional Speycasting is not where it started but where it ended up because of the wide deep rivers we have.
I fished a short double handed rod almost 40 years ago, and there were plenty people fishing them long before me, it was called a Grilse rod for fishing for the run of smaller Salmon and on the upper part of the rivers where a 15ft rod was just to much stick.
I don't know how anyone can know what's new... if you don't know whats already been done, the idea that we are at the forefront or at the most creative time in Speycasting is just pure nonsense .
Enjoy you experiments SkagitMeister, and remember the Victorians cast flies up to 9/0 a long time ago on a different tapered line, the first multi tip line was invented in 1890.
Cheers Gordon.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 09:45 AM
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The Hardy Catalog from the 1890's containing numerous rods under 13ft with mention of their use for overhead or switch (spey) casting.

https://books.google.com/books?id=HT...%20rod&f=false


Art Lingren's Book of the History of Spey Casting with Bruce & Walker ads from 1985 showing their 12' Grilse rods with mention of their usefulness for overhead or spey casts.

http://www.bcfff.bc.ca/publications/...rods_in_bc.pdf

Was it not evident to fishermen that one could continue to shorten the shooting head in relation to the rod length or did we need a new company to tell us it was possible?
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 11:46 AM
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:44 PM
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I was fishing the Klamath a couple days ago with a Skagit compact liine (450 grain) and 8 feet of type 6 sink tip on a Dec Hogan 2, 6 weight (12'6"). 4' leader of 10 lb. Maxima, doing double spey casts. It was casting well until I tried a 2-3 inch tube intruder with lead eyes. I had a tough time casting that fly and went back to a traditional unweighted fly in size 4. Was this rod or sink tip too light? Sink tip too short? Or perhaps my skills are not there yet. I have been spey casting only a few months, but fishing a single hand for decades. Maybe I should have been using my 7 weight. What is the ideal weight rod to cast big weighted flyes? Thanks for any advice. Nate
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:55 PM
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You should be able to cast that set up. Not sure the grain wt of your type 6 tip and that is a possible problem. But a t11 or t14 mow should work fine. I was on a coastal River the other day with a 6 wt and 425 casting 10' t tip with weighted eye bug
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Last edited by Rick J; 01-06-2017 at 05:34 PM.
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 02:03 PM
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With an unweighted fly you can sometimes get away with bad timing or muscling a cast. A heavy, sunk fly will accentuate casting imperfections like going too fast, not letting your D loop form enough, allowing slack to form, etc.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 02:08 PM
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Or perhaps my skills are not there yet. I have been spey casting only a few months, but fishing a single hand for decades. Maybe I should have been using my 7 weight. What is the ideal weight rod to cast big weighted flyes? Thanks for any advice. Nate
As you get closer to maxing out, or even really loading, the carrying capacity of a line system, all aspects of your cast are more critical- meaning smaller, lighter flies cast easier than heavy bulky sodden stuff. I don't often fish my 6 in winter, preferring an 8, or even a 7, as there is just more mass to move the larger, heavier bugs.

I started 2 handing with more decades of sh behind me than I like to think about. And it was mostly a detriment- causing too much use of the upper hand, and too much speed. Keep your hands in close, draw your loops with your bottom hand, don't cut corners (casting stroke corners), and slooooooooow way down. Then slow down again by half.

And most important, have fun.
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