Video Analysis Coaching - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 01:36 AM Thread Starter
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Video Analysis Coaching

I thought this was a pretty cool video that didn't get much love so I thought I would throw it out there and see what ya'll thought.
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... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 03:49 AM
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Thanks again for a helpful video. This was one of the most useful for me. I was laying in bed unable to sleep, thinking about my double spey casts a few days ago on the river and how I just wasn't content with them.I logged on to speypages and what did I find? A sweet video that breaks it down to the basic elements. Now I can see I am making a lot of the same mistakes as the gentleman on the video. Super helpful! I will be referring to this often in an effort to improve my double spey. Much appreciated! Now I can get some shut eye. All the best, Nate
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 06:29 AM
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Explanation how to set initial lift and anchor is good but when he comes to rod angles it turns not good. He is right that for that short example cast there comes too low rod angle because of Trunk which is a casting fault. But when he explains that rod (always) should left higher is not valid. Rod start angle should match the casting distance!!! When too high it prevents long casts and cause a Tailing Loop.

Explanation has plane talk which sounds about right (I did not understand Martini talk?) but on video it could have been done better.

Often there is no definite back cast in Skagit cast! Just Sweep which turns to forward cast. I underestand usually there is no need but it makes D-loop control difficult and sometimes Creep is used to keep line tension up and to "blow anchor just enough" which means anchor is dragged and aligned using Creep. I believe when caster does also T&G casting improves SA casting. I don't know which you Tim first began but now when you practise T&G styles it makes also your Skagit anchors and D-loops very good.

Back to Trunk vs. Drift which practically have same elements but it is the timing which differs them. Drift is done when line loop already forms and it has practically no effect to fly leg of the line loop and when Spey casting it is the lower part of the D-loop so letting rod tip come down makes following forward casting stroke longer and lessens tailing loop phenomenon. It also keeps the line straighter when it compensates lines stationary part coming down because of gravity.

Trunk is a casting fault where rod tip drops before line loop "detach" from the rod tip. It is good to learn how to cast D-loop more upwards and it can be done using constant Oval Cast false casting because there comes lots of "repetitions" which helps building it to spinal cord because rod track and force can be changed little by little and immediately see their effect in line behavior. Few 30 to 60 second sets are worth dozens of actual spey casts casts and it can be done on ground. Then when standing in water and the Oval Cast is slowed down little by little it turns to a Switch Cast

Esa
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 08:39 AM Thread Starter
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I feel your pain Nate!

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Originally Posted by Steelchromedome View Post
Thanks again for a helpful video. This was one of the most useful for me. I was laying in bed unable to sleep, thinking about my double spey casts a few days ago on the river and how I just wasn't content with them.I logged on to speypages and what did I find? A sweet video that breaks it down to the basic elements. Now I can see I am making a lot of the same mistakes as the gentleman on the video. Super helpful! I will be referring to this often in an effort to improve my double spey. Much appreciated! Now I can get some shut eye. All the best, Nate
I feel your pain Nate! I woke up this morning early with the same struggles dancing in my mind only with me it was my single spey. I watched a couple videos of Zach Williams and Bruce Kruk doing a their impeccable single Spey casts and I noticed I had an alert on my youtube page. It was a comment from another mentor of mine, Janusz Pinicz with an objective critique of a single spey I did with a heavy Skagit rig. Its pretty ugly but in the interest of posterity to the struggling phalanx of spey casters wading into the fray. You can see the commentary in posted below this video.
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... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 08:55 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bender View Post
Explanation how to set initial lift and anchor is good but when he comes to rod angles it turns not good. He is right that for that short example cast there comes too low rod angle because of Trunk which is a casting fault. But when he explains that rod (always) should left higher is not valid. Rod start angle should match the casting distance!!! When too high it prevents long casts and cause a Tailing Loop.

Explanation has plane talk which sounds about right (I did not understand Martini talk?) but on video it could have been done better.

Often there is no definite back cast in Skagit cast! Just Sweep which turns to forward cast. I understand usually there is no need but it makes D-loop control difficult and sometimes Creep is used to keep line tension up and to "blow anchor just enough" which means anchor is dragged and aligned using Creep. I believe when caster does also T&G casting improves SA casting. I don't know which you Tim first began but now when you practise T&G styles it makes also your Skagit anchors and D-loops very good.

Back to Trunk vs. Drift which practically have same elements but it is the timing which differs them. Drift is done when line loop already forms and it has practically no effect to fly leg of the line loop and when Spey casting it is the lower part of the D-loop so letting rod tip come down makes following forward casting stroke longer and lessens tailing loop phenomenon. It also keeps the line straighter when it compensates lines stationary part coming down because of gravity.

Trunk is a casting fault where rod tip drops before line loop "detach" from the rod tip. It is good to learn how to cast D-loop more upwards and it can be done using constant Oval Cast false casting because there comes lots of "repetitions" which helps building it to spinal cord because rod track and force can be changed little by little and immediately see their effect in line behavior. Few 30 to 60 second sets are worth dozens of actual spey casts casts and it can be done on ground. Then when standing in water and the Oval Cast is slowed down little by little it turns to a Switch Cast

Esa
I also thought Tom made a good point when he brought out the fact that the caster began his drift, or circle up just a tad before he had completed a full sweep. I thought it was a very good catch by Tom because I deal with the same issues (I'm improving now) with my single spey with Scandi heads in particular.

I thought the idea of the video was cool, doing a voice over while the video played and rewinding it occasionally to make a point. And I'm happy he addressed the trunking issue, although it was minimal. because it took a knowledgeable eye to detect it. Lots of guys do struggle with too much line stick due to bottom leg of the D loop collapsing on the water so its a valid point. But I'm with you, I like a pretty big casting angle or I have a tendency for tailing loops. I thought Tom addressed it well and made an educational dissertation on the subject. You did also, Esa.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 01:18 PM
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Rod final position following lift-over

I have to disagree with Tom a bit here. Bringing the rod too far in towards the near shore is not the problem. The problem is that after that move, the student did not create a sweep path of the rod tip outside the track of the lay-down, so tension in the line was not immediately established.

No matter where the rod tip points after the lift over, the path of the sweep should throw the line "out and around" its resting position on the water surface.

Because this "error" occurred early on, it affected each successive part of the casting sequence, causing the caster to constantly try to re-establish the missing tension by exaggerating subsequent movements.

The first brick in the wall is the most important one.

The analyzer is a great tool by the way. Props to Tom Larimer.
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Last edited by yoda1; 12-28-2016 at 08:44 PM. Reason: word choice
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 02:10 PM
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Would you or Esa please expound on the oval cast false casting repetitions. Anthing I can do to improve my casting and establish good/ proper muscle memory would be helpful. Thanks, Nate
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 03:22 PM
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I missed the point again Yes great tool to teach casting.

Nate, pease seatch Oval Casting videos in vimeo and youtube and you can also use google to get written instructions and more videos.

By false casting I mean many repetitive casting cycles where line behavior is analized and then changes are made to rod track and tilt angle, casting stroke speed and length, balance between hands, stops, flip, trajectory etc....

Oval Cast is a variation of an overhead cast but it can be made a spey casting drill when back cast is done tilting rod more to the side, of course little at a time. Use only a fluff in leader to make practise safer. There is an upward "flip" in the end just before back cast stop/slow down which turns the line loop upside down like it is in Spey casts. This flip also can direct the line loop upwards which can be useful when touch&go casts are done. I must test its usefulness on SA casts

Then when line is in good control it is time to step in to the water and adjust back cast so that leader and fluff lands to water. When fluff barely hits it can bounce up and can ruin following forwatd cast but then next time slow down more and leader sticks to water. Test also making the Flip bigger and leader should land more consistently.

Esa
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 03:47 PM
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Thanks for taking time to explain Esa. I will research and practice. Regards, Nate
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 09:23 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoda1 View Post
I have to disagree with Tom a bit here. Bringing the rod too far in towards the near shore is not the problem. The problem is that after that move, the student did not create a sweep path of the rod tip outside the track of the lay-down, so tension in the line was not immediately established.

Wherever the rod tip points after the lift over, the path of the sweep should throw the line "out and around" its resting position on the water surface.

Since this was the student's first "error", it affected every subsequent part of the casting sequence, causing him to constantly try to recover the missing tension by exaggerating subsequent movements.

The first brick in the wall is the most important one.

The analyzer is a great tool by the way. Props to Tom Larimer.
Very astute observation young Yoda! I would expect nothing less from the wrap caster extraordinaire.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 10:14 PM
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I don't like the lift or how the line is laid down in the vid. In my own casting I would rather have the fly lay down first and lay down gradually onto the water. I believe this is where the bit of slack is coming from and the reason the rest of the cast is off as a whole. I understand it is a waterborne anchor and it is easier and thats fine, but - strive for less. Less is more.
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-30-2016, 01:40 PM
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Agee with Yoda - I think you can land line as close to your body as possible and still get a good cast - it is the out and around on the D sweep that loads the rod. One of the best casters I know has worked very hard on his circle to try and get the line drop right next to him - thus the under-hand circle that brings the line in under the rod rather than over the top - very close to a vertical lift - quite similar to a PP. But still - lots of great info in the video - very well done
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