Underhand - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-03-2016, 10:41 PM Thread Starter
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Underhand

It's ugly but here is my first, attempt at learning.
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... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-04-2016, 01:20 AM
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Blog is looking sharp buddy. Really enjoying it.

I find underhanded casting easier more powerful and requires a lot less effort (for me and my style)

Sometimes it is easy to slip and use your high hand if you're hastening to get back in the water quickly. This is why I try and keep two fingers up top.

This morning I was first on the river and two single handers showed up about an hour later. The fish were out in the current and these two gents were making a gallant effort at attempting the distance. I applauded their ambition and commitment as I remembered those days when the fish were just beyond my reliably disappointing SH casting. The bane of my fishing existence

I stood on a rock in my knee high rubber boots and boooomed out about 120ft with my 12ft 6w switch. I mark my running lines these days. I glanced out of the corner of my eye and watched as their rod tips fell into the water and they followed the clouser like a fly ball to center field it has been a month since I fished and I was hungry and excited. Took me years to get here but it's been a helluva a lot of fun now that I'm adept (minimally) to cast most rods efficiently well enough to fish

Only underhanded casting could have got me (my style) to the current today with a nice D power loop

I was such sh1t as a SH fly caster its pure boneheaded stubbornness I didn't give it up a decade before seeing someone cast a switch rod in a video. Life was never the same

When I'm casting off my weak hand, underhand technique makes me look like a pro for all the hot chicks to watch d=(^^)=b then I air guitar my rod and yell "free bird!"
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-04-2016, 06:45 AM
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underhanded

my first dh rod was a used loop gass 6 wt . when i wanted to learn how to cast it , naturally since the rod was scandinavian i reasoned that the cast should be as well . some u tube vids later i was able to get a fly to where the fish were . not pretty , or "correct" but out there. 2 years , 2 more rods , lots of time casting and it's lookin' better and better . not quite 120' yet , but it's within reach . i know that the fish are just as likely at 12' but a lifetime as an athlete drives me to perfect the distance skill . i can cast 12' already .
using my body as a tool has left me with a worn out shoulder and elbow . the spare movements of the underhand cast alleviates post fishing pain . in fact it seems the less movement of my arms the better i cast . goran himself and mortensen are the minimalist gurus . granbo and drugge move the up arm more but still power the line with an underhand motion .
i want to say that the power of speypages is amazing . because of posts i have made here ,a scandinavian member took pity on me and made me his "casting project " . he loaned me some videos of the scandinavian masters and gave me some lines for my rod . many , many thanks to johncke !! may his kindness be rewarded tenfold .
as a coach of young soccer players i often preach that the hallmark of a great athlete is consistency . i'm not there yet but i won't stop til i am . to me the journey is as much fun as the destination.
thanks , jim

Listen to the river sing sweet songs to rock my soul ...
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-04-2016, 06:57 AM
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Jim that's awesome. There is a common theme of thoughtfulness combined with modesty here on SP for sure. When I went through a rough go several years ago I was offered lots of gear to use as I had to sell all of mine at the time. There is sportsmanship and brotherhood that is rarely seen any more here. And lots of humor


I saw this on FB yesterday - as a big soccer fan and former player I thought it was funny
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-04-2016, 09:42 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks

Thanks guys for the support. Here is my game plan for proceeding. It's kind of a switch cast drill shown by Jan Erik Granbo.
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... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-04-2016, 05:53 PM
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This Thread is Helping Me

Getting lots of tips and re-enforcement from the video clips, yours and others included, great. Being self taught does not help, all those bad muscle memory casting groups have to be relearned , which isn't to bad as we are always evolving and it freshens us up. My main fault stems from tight quarters fishing, back up against vegetation or structure, my setup and cast is out in front, arms often out stretched to create d-loop space behind.
But, all is not lost as this forum and you guys are a source of relevant casting instruction, thanks, keep it coming.
My fish catching casts are in the 40-70' range at the most, so the other day after watching some of your videos I went down to the river armed with my VSL 6/7, 420gr rage compact, 14' fast sink poly and kept concentration on that bottom hand and a tight forehand elbow, some torso rotation, WOW , not every cast as I am human after all , but a big improvement if I look back 7 years ago when I first cast an A3 6wt switch with a scandi head.
Think there was less than 6 turns of grip shooter on the reel with some the better casts Looking forward to shooting some line soon on the Birth Place of Spey.
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-04-2016, 07:48 PM
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Jim that's awesome. There is a common theme of thoughtfulness combined with modesty here on SP for sure. When I went through a rough go several years ago I was offered lots of gear to use as I had to sell all of mine at the time. There is sportsmanship and brotherhood that is rarely seen any more here. And lots of humor


I saw this on I sFB yesterday - as a big soccer fan and former player I thought it was funny
that's great , i've got a big smile goin' now ..
thanks , jim
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-04-2016, 08:14 PM
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I am also casting underhanded more and more. I have it down to holding the rod with index and thumb only. I can make nice cast with plenty of distance , for all that is needed mostly. My problem is I can't nail one this year ,15 days and nothing. I must like casting I've been practicing for quite awhile.
Last week while in deep water , I lifted my underhand to chin level and did the casting and did the cast right in front of my face. It still put the line out.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-04-2016, 09:17 PM
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SkagitMiester,

Thanks for creating the Blog,,, great videos and references.

Regards,
FK
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-05-2016, 01:57 AM Thread Starter
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I am also casting underhanded more and more. I have it down to holding the rod with index and thumb only. I can make nice cast with plenty of distance , for all that is needed mostly. My problem is I can't nail one this year ,15 days and nothing. I must like casting I've been practicing for quite awhile.
Last week while in deep water , I lifted my underhand to chin level and did the casting and did the cast right in front of my face. It still put the line out.
Haha! I feel your pain. I've been skunked all spring, so casting practice it is but it beats not being on the water. Good luck.
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... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-05-2016, 01:59 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Fred, That means a lot. I'm so glad you like my blog. I appreciate the support.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-05-2016, 02:53 AM
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Pitty about the sound track....... would have been better to hear that reel groan a bit at the end of those casts......thats when i know its all coming together.......puts aon ya face.

The more sophisticated the level of our knowledge is, the more effective we will be in dealing with the natural world.....The 14th Dalai Lama
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-05-2016, 06:56 PM
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The Underhand casting and the use of bottom hand are two different subjects

Underhand casting is a style where the fly is cast under the arm! It is also a Spey casting style but if you understand overhead casting its Spey version is Underhand casting. I have heard this from the mouth of a Finnish Undnerhand casting instructor who Mr Göran Andersson had taught and certified! When casting advances to double hand rod they do teach to use bottom hand too because it is efficient and improves line loop control but for clarity it should be called the bottom hand for DH rod and line hand for SH rod.

I think a Scandi style is closer to classic long line Spey than Underhand style. Long line casting require distinct line lift first which is not necessary when shorter and floating Scandi head is cast but on both the back cast is done more sideways tilted rod and the back cast is more dynamic and on both line trajectory is directed upward in the end of the back cast. On Underhand the line head is short but it is still lifted practically out of water first and kept airborne using upright rod more than line speed.

This video has very old footage of Underhand casting by Mr Göran Andersson. Note the upright rod in back casts and although there is not too clear Drifting when casting on water the instruction phases on lawn do have. The Drift serve two purpose on Underhand. Lengthens the following forward cast and it seems also produce some upward movement for the line to form more efficient D-loop but on Scandi and Classic the Drift only lengthens the forward cast. In practice styles can be mixex and transition can be smooth and defining becomes difficult and finally meaningless.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=LUrujaJ0F34"
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-05-2016, 08:53 PM
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The Underhand casting and the use of bottom hand are two different subjects

Underhand casting is a style where the fly is cast under the arm! It is also a Spey casting style but if you understand overhead casting its Spey version is Underhand casting. I have heard this from the mouth of a Finnish Undnerhand casting instructor who Mr Göran Andersson had taught and certified! When casting advances to double hand rod they do teach to use bottom hand too because it is efficient and improves line loop control but for clarity it should be called the bottom hand for DH rod and line hand for SH rod.

I think a Scandi style is closer to classic long line Spey than Underhand style. Long line casting require distinct line lift first which is not necessary when shorter and floating Scandi head is cast but on both the back cast is done more sideways tilted rod and the back cast is more dynamic and on both line trajectory is directed upward in the end of the back cast. On Underhand the line head is short but it is still lifted practically out of water first and kept airborne using upright rod more than line speed.

This video has very old footage of Underhand casting by Mr Göran Andersson. Note the upright rod in back casts and although there is not too clear Drifting when casting on water the instruction phases on lawn do have. The Drift serve two purpose on Underhand. Lengthens the following forward cast and it seems also produce some upward movement for the line to form more efficient D-loop but on Scandi and Classic the Drift only lengthens the forward cast. In practice styles can be mixex and transition can be smooth and defining becomes difficult and finally meaningless.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=LUrujaJ0F34"
w w w dot g-feuerstein.com/en/style-confusion.html

I simply don't know which of the above [quoted para.] or webpage is the more baised, confusing or just plain wrong!

for clarification on Underhand Technique (from FFF), see below:

w w w dot fedflyfishers.org/Casting/BecomeCertified/Definitions/THCI/tabid/696/Default.aspx

& scroll down the page


Mike
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 06:48 AM
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I saw the first Göran Andersson Underhand casting demonstration more than 30 years ago and he was using a SINGLE HAND ROD. Please watch the video I linked on my previous post. Some parts of that video obviously are from that time era because he has the same Loop reel which later became the Loop Dry Fly which by the way is still manufactured by Danielsson. Fifteen minutes of Underhand casting and a SH rod!

Few years later I did participate to an Underhand casting class and we did use single hand rods at least 2/3 of the day and all the time learning "alaheitto" which is its a finnish synonym to Underhand casting. Then when we did use a DH rod the use of bottom hand came up but it was not emphasized much and the bottom hand path which is required for the back cast did get much more attention because I believe is the key element of the Underhand casting. How the front stop becomes high because the rod butt hits to the belly did get smile to few faces because the instructor said he has an advantage there. You know we finns need to learn to grin ourselves because others do that too Why the bottom hand use did not get much attention might be also because the Underhand style and very short shooting heads were already widely used here and I think all of the participants did already use both hands. Or perhaps because that is not the key element? IMHO the Underhand key element is the back cast!!!

Later but this is at least ten years ago when I saw Göran Anderssson DH casting demonstration he spoke more about bottom hand use on powering the forward cast but when he was casting farther he did use both hands about equally immediately he was shooting some line. Now when I think how you there in NA see the Underhand as a bottom hand use (only) might have changed his way of teaching as well.

Last paragraph of Feuerstein clarify how he interpret these two subjects when he writes about Underhand and Skagit after he early has emphasized the bottom hand use which was hardly ever was mentioned in early Skagit casting instruction videos. Just like Underhand style the SA casts can be powered using mostly top hand or mostly bottom hand and using both hands when casting far and when the setup is heavy.

IMHO if the use of bottom hand is emphasized too much when learning the Underhand casting style the beauty of the Style itself is missed! It is possible to Underhand cast where the forward cast is powered using only or mostly by the top hand but it makes sense to use both hands like Göran Andersson when a double hand rod makes it possible!

Esa
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