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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-25-2016, 09:18 PM Thread Starter
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scandit

Here is my take on the Scandit style. If there is such a thing.

Watch in high def if your able. New audio is on its way.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-25-2016, 09:29 PM
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In Scandinavian Style ( underhand style) the power applications comes form the bottom hand. What you have shown on the video has nothing to do with Sandi style at all:

for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKnhkokyuBo
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-25-2016, 11:29 PM
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Best Line I have owned

NiceGreat escape watching your casts while we have gales, rain etc here! Was packing away that line in 6wt yesterday thinking what a great versatile line rio made, has probably seen more casts than any other line I own, nearing replacement soon so I hope it remains in the line up.
Thanks for posting
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 03:06 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJS Reels View Post
NiceGreat escape watching your casts while we have gales, rain etc here! Was packing away that line in 6wt yesterday thinking what a great versatile line rio made, has probably seen more casts than any other line I own, nearing replacement soon so I hope it remains in the line up.
Thanks for posting
Yeah, its a great line! I think it will stay around. Glad you liked the video. Looking forward to more of your clips when your winter is over.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com

Last edited by SkagitMiester; 06-26-2016 at 11:34 AM.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 03:08 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sazan View Post
In Scandinavian Style ( underhand style) the power applications comes form the bottom hand. What you have shown on the video has nothing to do with Sandi style at all:

for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKnhkokyuBo
Yeah, that is pretty cool. I don't know how they do that. I might fit in the category of bastardized modern American PNW scandi head spey chucker, wherein we cast "Scandinavian Shooting Heads" and call it "Scandi" (I'm guilty) Hence: Scandit. Where as these fellers utilize true underhand style. Amazing stuff. It looks really difficult to master.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com

Last edited by SkagitMiester; 06-26-2016 at 10:39 AM.
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkagitMiester View Post
Yeah, that is pretty cool. I don't know how they do that. I might fit in the category of bastardized modern scandi head spey chucker. Hence: Scandit. Where as these fellers utilize true underhand style. Amazing stuff.
There is one hint I can give you about the true Scandi/Underhand casting. Something very simple but hard to pick up by most people learning this technique without the instructor. To be able to propel the line forward using your underhand (by pulling your underhand toward the body) you first have to push your underhand away from your body during the sweep

In your video I can see you sweep and propel the line with your upper hand only. In Scandi style you push away with your underhand in the first phase of the sweep and then rotate your body. Both hands are in front of your body all the time. The upper hand does not pull at all and you keep your elbow close to your body. That's it. Finally during the forward cast you pull your underhand and the upper hand locks and blocks the rod in the +/- 11 o'clock position. By blocking the rod with your upper hand the tip bends toward the front and transfers the energy onto the shooting head.

You can use this technique casting both Scandi and Skagit heads. In fact it's the most effective and effortless technique of casting.

Last edited by Cloner; 06-26-2016 at 10:12 AM.
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 09:30 AM
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If you have a decent visual memory, get DVD by Jan Erik Granbo from Guideline.

"My Best Casting Techniques"
Advanced double-handed fly casting


It is one of the best instructional videos describing Underhand casting, and it contains plenty of slow-motion scenes.

Z
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloner View Post
There is one hint I can give you about the true Scandi/Underhand casting. Something very simple but hard to pick up by most people learning this technique without the instructor. To be able to propel the line forward using your underhand (by pulling your underhand toward the body) you first have to push your underhand away from your body during the sweep

In your video I can see you sweep and propel the line with your upper hand only. In Scandi style you push away with your underhand in the first phase of the sweep and then rotate your body. Both hands are in front of your body all the time. The upper hand does not pull at all and you keep your elbow close to your body. That's it. Finally during the forward cast you pull your underhand and the upper hand locks and blocks the rod in the +/- 11 o'clock position. By blocking the rod with your upper hand the tip bends toward the front and transfers the energy onto the shooting head.

You can use this technique casting both Scandi and Skagit heads. In fact it's the most effective and effortless technique of casting.
Thanks for the tips. I will play with that and try to incorporate more bottom hand, as you have admonished me in the past!
For me, most of my sweep, on the single Spey is done with my body. A couple weeks ago, after our discussion on this same subject I started using more bottom hand in the sweep, particularly after watching the following video of you.

https://vimeo.com/147080940#embed

This is great stuff for technique and inspiration. I especially like the forward stroke, and it is indeed, powered by a long powerful bottom hand and with very short concise top hand guidance. Way cool. If I can emulate this, I think it will help with all of my casting.

Looks like I kinda fell off the wagon!!! Of course I do use bottom hand on the forward stroke, but mine ends up quite a bit higher, and when I don't concentrate on it, I do have a tendency to lighten up on the bottom hand power application. Casts do fly much better with more bottom hand!
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... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 11:14 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sazan View Post
If you have a decent visual memory, get DVD by Jan Erik Granbo from Guideline.

"My Best Casting Techniques"
Advanced double-handed fly casting


It is one of the best instructional videos describing Underhand casting, and it contains plenty of slow-motion scenes.

Z
Yes, I do have pretty good visual memory, which is why I prefer videos to written material, as I get lost very easy reading over complicated descriptions. So I'm pretty high on videos. I'll keep an eye out for those Granbo DVD's you recommend.

I'll keep playing with it and try to post my progress on video here. I plan on dropping down a few grains as the #8 line is a tad heavy on this rod for my tastes, especially for tweaking my style. Thanks the help and for watching! Its been a popular clip.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 11:27 AM Thread Starter
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What is Scandi casting?

For those of you interested in what we are talking about here is a great discussion on the subject of Scandi casting.

In particular, pay close attention the the comments offered by Riveraddict, Baltic Fly Fisher, and Tropher Brown.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkagitMiester View Post
I plan on dropping down a few grains as the #8 line is a tad heavy on this rod for my tastes, especially for tweaking my style.
The more you use your underhand during forward delivery the lighter you can go with the shooting head. The use of underhand increases shooting head speed thus increases the load of the rod and the energy of the cast. Also the flatter and faster you sweep the lighter you can go with the shooting head in switch cast and single spey cast. That's why the snake roll is such a powerful cast - high line speed !

PS. I'm looking forward to some new videos of you casting the scandi way Though mastering the technique is easier said than done.
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-28-2016, 01:04 PM
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Skandit.

I'm the guy who coined that term, but it was a parallel evolution and a lot of guys experimented individually in the same timeframe- which eventually resulted in some fantastic lines and greater lining options. The two best production Skandit lines that came out initially were the SGS Scandit and the Steelhead Tactical for those who liked a bit more length.

It arose once the limitations of the beercan Skagit became clearer to us with time and usage. Some of us were looking for a versatile shorthead that would not only carry moderate sinktips and bigger flies, but enable sweet dryline casting too with a floating tip. A crossover between SA and T&G, enabling comfortable use of both methods with one line.

I'd call it less of a distinct casting style and more a set of gear choices that ends up maximizing versatility for your basic outfit, and shaping your loop to suit after that. It's particularly useful when fishing moderate distances over rivers that ask for flexibility in presentation, such as moderate-sized coastal rivers in OR or the OP, where I used it most with good result. Shallow tailout? floating line and underhanding. Brushy banks with a deep slot? Sinktip, moderate junk, sustained anchor with slightly opened stroke. Beautifully versatile. Less crap to carry when you're on foot, too.

The basic head, later called a driver, needed to be heavy enough in a relative sense (or it wouldn't carry a sinktip easily), short enough but not too short (for nice anchor and flight characteristics in scandi mode), with a cut point resulting in adequate tip diameter to turn junk over when in SA mode, but still giving a fairly light and mobile feeling when fished with the floating tip.

I started fiddling with Skandit as a concept in '07 myself, and by that winter had arrived at a fairly light pseudoscandi taper with a cut point that allowed 120 grain sinktips, but still enabled beautiful scandi casts with the floating tip (albeit with slightly slower line speeds and less compressed stroke). I wasn't alone in this, of course, folks were hitting the problem from lots of angles.

I broke my needs for the rod into components then built up the lines to suit. After a few very frightful frankenlines, I started hitting my own personal sweet spot with the design. I made some experimental lines in multi-D versions too, and had a floating version in circulation as a loaner at one point (that one was a heavy sh Outbound head, cut off and flipped end for end). Not long after, manufacturers began making some beautiful line choices available so I began using them.

Most of the time when I see Merkins casting a scandi head, they're using a more open cast, less bottom hand with more A>B travel, and it's often much heavier than an Andersson style caster would use on the same rod. I see very little disciplined Underhanding. (Capital U because, in the words of Mr Bencivenga, "all spey casts are underhand, dammit"- and he's right). There are numerous kinds of "scandi" styles, most prevalent in use is the Modern style, which is a bit more open and less compressed than Andersson style, which most Americans think of when they hear the word Scandi. But make no mistake, all are deadly. btw, yes, longheads can be and are Underhanded too! but that lies in the gray zone that we always want to avoid for some reason, and is a topic for another thread. There is a point where Longbelly meets Scandi, and that's a fun place.

There are a lot of twists in Scandi world, and to Scandinavians fishing Scandi gear, all of this is old hat! I could have shortcut my own development process by simply getting a Swede or DD head, cutting it back to a slightly heavy feel for Underhanding, than whacked the tip off at .050 for tips. As they say, hindsight is always 20/20.

In any event, if you're a DH fisherman on a budget and just sort of finding your way right now, Skandit may be useful to you. Cheap, versatile, easy to use, forgiving of casting imperfections. There's higher refinement in these heads now, and the length/weight/taper ratios are very favorable to Skandit with many of the shorthead lines available now; OPST Commando, shorter Nextcasts, SGS Scandit, Airflo Skagit switch-- it seems like every manufacturer has a line that will work as a Skandit driver now, and that's a good thing. Line evolution is making shorthead style distinctions less relevant; it's just a matter of getting the head length/weight that suits your preference and will fish the way you want it to.

A good way to roughly estimate what you need is to split the difference between the Scandi head and the Skagit head preferences on a given rod. I'll just knock 50 gr off the Skagit weight and go with that; or more often,add 30 gr to my Scandi head preference. Even better, pick up an SGS scandit package and you're done!
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Last edited by SpeySpaz; 06-28-2016 at 01:46 PM.
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-29-2016, 12:51 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks

Thanks for weighing in Spaz, nice to hear from you. Your one of the first people I thought of when I posted this because I had seen you use the term Scandit quite a while back. Glad this post caught your eye, Thanks for the informational and always entertaining post. (Should it be Skandit? )

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeySpaz View Post
Skandit.

I'm the guy who coined that term, but it was a parallel evolution and a lot of guys experimented individually in the same timeframe- which eventually resulted in some fantastic lines and greater lining options. The two best production Skandit lines that came out initially were the SGS Scandit and the Steelhead Tactical for those who liked a bit more length.

It arose once the limitations of the beercan Skagit became clearer to us with time and usage. Some of us were looking for a versatile shorthead that would not only carry moderate sinktips and bigger flies, but enable sweet dryline casting too with a floating tip. A crossover between SA and T&G, enabling comfortable use of both methods with one line.

I'd call it less of a distinct casting style and more a set of gear choices that ends up maximizing versatility for your basic outfit, and shaping your loop to suit after that. It's particularly useful when fishing moderate distances over rivers that ask for flexibility in presentation, such as moderate-sized coastal rivers in OR or the OP, where I used it most with good result. Shallow tailout? floating line and underhanding. Brushy banks with a deep slot? Sinktip, moderate junk, sustained anchor with slightly opened stroke. Beautifully versatile. Less crap to carry when you're on foot, too.

The basic head, later called a driver, needed to be heavy enough in a relative sense (or it wouldn't carry a sinktip easily), short enough but not too short (for nice anchor and flight characteristics in scandi mode), with a cut point resulting in adequate tip diameter to turn junk over when in SA mode, but still giving a fairly light and mobile feeling when fished with the floating tip.

I started fiddling with Skandit as a concept in '07 myself, and by that winter had arrived at a fairly light pseudoscandi taper with a cut point that allowed 120 grain sinktips, but still enabled beautiful scandi casts with the floating tip (albeit with slightly slower line speeds and less compressed stroke). I wasn't alone in this, of course, folks were hitting the problem from lots of angles.

I broke my needs for the rod into components then built up the lines to suit. After a few very frightful frankenlines, I started hitting my own personal sweet spot with the design. I made some experimental lines in multi-D versions too, and had a floating version in circulation as a loaner at one point (that one was a heavy sh Outbound head, cut off and flipped end for end). Not long after, manufacturers began making some beautiful line choices available so I began using them.

Most of the time when I see Merkins casting a scandi head, they're using a more open cast, less bottom hand with more A>B travel, and it's often much heavier than an Andersson style caster would use on the same rod. I see very little disciplined Underhanding. (Capital U because, in the words of Mr Bencivenga, "all spey casts are underhand, dammit"- and he's right). There are numerous kinds of "scandi" styles, most prevalent in use is the Modern style, which is a bit more open and less compressed than Andersson style, which most Americans think of when they hear the word Scandi. But make no mistake, all are deadly. btw, yes, longheads can be and are Underhanded too! but that lies in the gray zone that we always want to avoid for some reason, and is a topic for another thread. There is a point where Longbelly meets Scandi, and that's a fun place.

There are a lot of twists in Scandi world, and to Scandinavians fishing Scandi gear, all of this is old hat! I could have shortcut my own development process by simply getting a Swede or DD head, cutting it back to a slightly heavy feel for Underhanding, than whacked the tip off at .050 for tips. As they say, hindsight is always 20/20.

In any event, if you're a DH fisherman on a budget and just sort of finding your way right now, Skandit may be useful to you. Cheap, versatile, easy to use, forgiving of casting imperfections. There's higher refinement in these heads now, and the length/weight/taper ratios are very favorable to Skandit with many of the shorthead lines available now; OPST Commando, shorter Nextcasts, SGS Scandit, Airflo Skagit switch-- it seems like every manufacturer has a line that will work as a Skandit driver now, and that's a good thing. Line evolution is making shorthead style distinctions less relevant; it's just a matter of getting the head length/weight that suits your preference and will fish the way you want it to.

A good way to roughly estimate what you need is to split the difference between the Scandi head and the Skagit head preferences on a given rod. I'll just knock 50 gr off the Skagit weight and go with that; or more often,add 30 gr to my Scandi head preference. Even better, pick up an SGS scandit package and you're done!
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-29-2016, 01:11 AM
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Thanks for the props, SM.

I called it Skandit because it reflected that PNW flavor, and rode the line between the styles for me, but I'm certain more guys refer to it as Scandit.

To each his own, eh? Like casting, there's a lot of blur, a lot of grey zone, and the only thing to ever get really serious about is the shape of your next loop.
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-29-2016, 11:18 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeySpaz View Post
Thanks for the props, SM.

I called it Skandit because it reflected that PNW flavor, and rode the line between the styles for me, but I'm certain more guys refer to it as Scandit.

To each his own, eh? Like casting, there's a lot of blur, a lot of grey zone, and the only thing to ever get really serious about is the shape of your next loop.
I agree totally...the shape of the loop....and the effortlessness, or efficiency of the cast.

This underhand journey I'm now on thanks to the comments of Cloner and now Z has already revealed some pretty cool stuff, including how moderate my underhand use has been and how much more of my bottom hand I can facilitate using the true (or trying to) underhand style. I thought I was using it before...but this ads a whole new element for me...developing...

I think it will ultimately pay off as I incorporate it into in my long belly casting.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
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