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  #31  
Old 07-13-2008, 04:01 PM
Rick Kruger Rick Kruger is offline
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Procedure for welding loops and lines

Quote:
Originally Posted by pond.olive View Post
Rick,
That's a neat loop! Can you post us through the process?

ttfn
Richard
Richard,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I contacted Steve Godshall regarding your request and we've exchanged emails and phone calls. He gave permission for me to post the procedure and offered suggestions for modifications to my original notes. Attached is an Rich Text Format file of those revised notes. As said before, it is based on the same procedure in Al Buhr's book on building fly lines and the credit ultimately belongs to him.

Also, as said at the end of the notes, these instructions are primarily concepts, not literal instructions, so you have to figure out what works for you. Your results will vary.

Good luck,

Rick

P.S. July 14th. Edited the procedures to clarify the question about "tacking down" and give credit to the original source - Al Buhr. Reposted new version.

Last edited by Rick Kruger; 07-14-2008 at 10:10 PM.
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  #32  
Old 07-14-2008, 09:20 AM
Subtropicalspey Subtropicalspey is offline
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Rick,

Thanks a lot for posting these instructions. Just one point of clarification please. What do you mean by the final instruction, " Important to tack both sides.?
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  #33  
Old 07-14-2008, 09:54 AM
Rick Kruger Rick Kruger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtropicalspey View Post
Rick,

Thanks a lot for posting these instructions. Just one point of clarification please. What do you mean by the final instruction, "• Important to tack both sides.?
I'll get clarification from Steve on that one. I have not done that procedure. Looking back at my notes, it appears that instruction may be out of place. It probably should be listed a couple steps above, referring to positioning the lines on both sides of the fat line by heating the shrink tube while keeping the lines in position. That is, using initial snugging of the shrink tube to lock the lines in position before doing the welding.

Rick
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  #34  
Old 07-14-2008, 12:32 PM
dmas dmas is offline
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Thx or taking the time to post this Rick. I actually ordered Al's book the other day to figure out this process. Book should be good anyhow...I'm looking forward to learning more about line design.
regards,
dave
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  #35  
Old 07-14-2008, 10:21 PM
Rick Kruger Rick Kruger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmas View Post
Thx or taking the time to post this Rick. I actually ordered Al's book the other day to figure out this process. Book should be good anyhow...I'm looking forward to learning more about line design.
regards,
dave
Dave,

I hope to hear back about other's successes with the procedure. It was actually great fun doing the loops. I modified the file I posted today and reposted it in an edited message above.

Steve Godshall is going to be at the Cascadia Spey Casting games this weekend, with some of his custom taper rods for folks to try out (Speywerks), among others.

http://speypages.com/speyclave/showthread.php?t=29889

I plan to be there for a while Sat. I'll bring some copies of the procedure. Probably leave them at Steve's display. Come by and say Hi, check out his rods. I won't be joining in any of the games, as I have a broken foot and can't get into waders right now.

Rick

Last edited by Rick Kruger; 07-15-2008 at 10:44 PM.
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  #36  
Old 07-15-2008, 12:53 AM
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Good Thread,

Welding line in general.

One note of caution.
If you are making running line loops (attaching a running line loop to large diameter body such as Skagit) make sure that your running lines it of the same material as the parent line.
This just makes the job easier.
This go for when you are welding lines together also.
Here are a couple of links that you might want to look at on Welded loops
http://www.speyshop.com/channels/not...196/index.shtm
http://www.speyshop.com/channels/not...798/index.shtm
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  #37  
Old 07-15-2008, 09:09 AM
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Rick, thanks for your efforts in putting the text document together. It makes perfect sense. Although I've never seen the clear shrink tubing, I'll keep my eyes peel now for sure. I hope your foot has a speedy recovery.

Speybum, those pages are very helpful. I had a good understanding based on Rick's notes. The pictures reinforced the overlaps, the nozzle size for the heat gun. I think I might need a copy of Al Buhr's book.

I can't believe this was such a mystery to me only a few weeks ago.

-Rob
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  #38  
Old 07-15-2008, 05:55 PM
dmas dmas is offline
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Al's book arrived yesterday. Actually it is more of a pamphlet than it is a book. Still...it's fairly comprehensive in covering the subject of line design. Suprised there is not more formalized information out there on the subject to be honest with you. I briefly took a look at the welding methods he outlines and they seem to be very similar to what is on this thread.
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  #39  
Old 07-15-2008, 08:16 PM
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Guys

Making a loop right is just like casting it takes practice.
Grab a old line and have at it you have nothing to loose.
I keep the loop on my Tryrack lines and I must admit every now and then there is a OPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPS.
But all it takes time.
If you have any questions on subject either post or e-mail me
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  #40  
Old 07-15-2008, 10:54 PM
Rick Kruger Rick Kruger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speybum View Post
Welding line in general.

One note of caution.
If you are making running line loops (attaching a running line loop to large diameter body such as Skagit) make sure that your running lines it of the same material as the parent line.
This just makes the job easier.
This go for when you are welding lines together also.
Here are a couple of links that you might want to look at on Welded loops
http://www.speyshop.com/channels/not...196/index.shtm
http://www.speyshop.com/channels/not...798/index.shtm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NB Rob View Post
Rick, thanks for your efforts in putting the text document together. It makes perfect sense. Although I've never seen the clear shrink tubing, I'll keep my eyes peel now for sure. I hope your foot has a speedy recovery.

Speybum, those pages are very helpful. I had a good understanding based on Rick's notes. The pictures reinforced the overlaps, the nozzle size for the heat gun. I think I might need a copy of Al Buhr's book.

I can't believe this was such a mystery to me only a few weeks ago.

-Rob
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmas View Post
Al's book arrived yesterday. Actually it is more of a pamphlet than it is a book. Still...it's fairly comprehensive in covering the subject of line design. Surprised there is not more formalized information out there on the subject to be honest with you. I briefly took a look at the welding methods he outlines and they seem to be very similar to what is on this thread.
Thanks for that additional information. Seeing the photos does help.
3 weeks ago (or whenever), I didn't even know loops were an issue, let alone a mystery. Amazing what a little information can do.
The info should be highly consistent with Buhr's "pamphlet" as it is supposed to be almost entirely based on it. My copy is still "on order", so I can't say how close it is.

Happy Welding,

Rick
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  #41  
Old 07-16-2008, 11:59 AM
t_richerzhagen t_richerzhagen is offline
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Except for

some punctuation, what Aaron is showing is Al's method. The book is worth it, and Al's class on line building is even better. If you get a chance at one of the claves, it is well worth the time and expense.
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  #42  
Old 07-17-2008, 01:46 AM
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Agree, wholeheartedly

Quote:
Originally Posted by t_richerzhagen View Post
some punctuation, what Aaron is showing is Al's method. The book is worth it, and Al's class on line building is even better. If you get a chance at one of the claves, it is well worth the time and expense.
I have refrained from posting directions for doing things that are in Al's book. I don't know if it is copywrited, O.K. with Al, or what. But Al is a nice guy. And I don't feel like tromping on his turf.

$20 for his book is not a big deal. And his classes on line building are less than the price of a new line.
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  #43  
Old 09-08-2008, 05:43 PM
Nooksack Mac Nooksack Mac is offline
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Question Proof Positive

The recent surge of interest in various ways to create loops and splices in fly lines is a positive development. It's helping us to get the maximum performance and versatility out of our fly tackle. Like others, I've been trying to upgrade my skills and knowledge in this area. But I'm concerned that there's a lack of scientific rigor in testing and comparing results. (This is also true of knot tying, with some people content to rely on inferior knots that Grampaw tought them.)

How many of you have actually tested and compared your results? From what I've seen in several articles, imperical testing of knot and line strengths is dificult, requiring machinery that is not available to most of us, and methadology that is complex and tedious. But without test results, how do we know if our connections are reliable?

Let's start with a fundamental question: how strong is a fly line?

That's our base line, and I've never seen a figure in print. (I guess, and it's only a guess, that it's approx. 35-40 lbs., perhaps less for the tapered ends and running lines.)

I've been told that it's not an important issue, because the static lifting strength of even heavy duty fly rods, expressed in pounds, isn't all that much. That's missing a point: Almost all of us snag bottom from time to time, and have to break loose (with a direct pull that doesn't put our rod at risk, of course!). Usually the tippet will break first; but even in freshwater we frequently use stout tippets for salmon and steelhead. And if a sinking tip is jammed between rocks, well, we're going to find out how strong our connections really are.

These are non-comprehensive but realistic tests that we can duplicate. I've been testing my connections recently, using mono of various sizes tied to trees in my back yard. It's been a relief to find that blind splices, served loops, and double catch loops in 50 lb. braided line, thread-whipped and coated at the back end, are all stronger than 35 lb. mono. I think that's strong enough for most purposes. I still need to test blind splices in running line, and knots in backing.

Regarding welded loops: the attraction of sleek, professional-looking loops may be concealing a weakness. Welded loops are mostly plastic melted to plastic, without the braided core contributing any strength to the loop. Or am I missing something?
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  #44  
Old 09-08-2008, 05:54 PM
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when I make welded loops in PVC lines, often the PVC will stiffen, resulting in a hinge and premature cracking where the weld meets single strand flyline.

when testing fresh welded loops, there is a weak spot (for me) at this same place - where the weld meets single strand fly line. The weak spot isn't excessively weak - certainly stronger than 8-12 lb terminal tippet - but it is consistently the weak spot in the flyline.

for the time being, I have no plans to switch all my loops to welds. Many of the various (non-welded) loops that I made 5-10 years ago are still going strong. My newer welded loops haven't had nearly that durability, though loops in Airflo lines seem to be holding up better.
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  #45  
Old 09-08-2008, 06:31 PM
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Skeptical

I am the king of being a skeptic when it comes to this method. I resisted for a long time. The first thing I asked Steve G was about testing. He told me they had done some lab testing on welded loops and that fly lines were beaking in places other than the weld. This makes sense if the weld is done right as there is more material there and hence more strength. Like all things if the transition from the weld to the line itself is abrupt that is probably going to make a problem area. I always taper the legs and offset the so one is longer. I am trying to extend the trasition so there is no sawing off.

In the end it is my personal testing and confidence that matters most. All the years I was guiding I put lots of gear together and tied lots of knots for clients. If things come aprt on you you are not a guide for long. You develop your own sense of testing for knots and loops. I have pulled and yanked on my welds and so far I am happy with them. With two of them I hooked them to the wall and applied steadily increasing prssure, way beyond what a fish is capable of, and both time the line broke feet from the weld.

Like everything, learn all you can. Use careful, repeatable technique, and satisfy yourself that the job is done and ready to use.
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