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winter steelheading with floating lines

25K views 123 replies 44 participants last post by  808steelheader 
#1 ·
I been thinking about to try out some full sized spey lines because as of nos I been only fishing skagits and scandi heads. I simply want to try out some more traditional tools for catching these fish.

Most places I fish are small to medium sized rivers and short belly lines comes to mind. I also love my 11'9" scott arc 6wt, so I would like some pointers on the line choice. Any input on what leaders to use? Upstream cast followed with mends to get my fly deep? Would a floro leader benefit much to get my fly deep?
 
#3 ·
I have had dryline winter success with the Ambush lines in 7, 8, and 9wt on my single hand glass rods. These lines have a 20' head so I cast across stream, make a pull back mend, and feed 5-7 extra stips of line into the drift and then swing across, often stepping down during the swing.

I've also used the CND 7/8/9 wt double taper on my Sage 8136 IIIe. Cast across, make a big back mend, step down during the swing.

My winter flies are bead head MOALs and Winter's Hopes tied on 4/0 and 5/0 Partridge Ms.

Have fun,
Todd
 
#5 ·
I have a question regarding this technique if any of you care to chime in...

So if you are throwing heavy irons, casting at angles and making mends with the intent of getting your heavy fly down as deep as you can why not just fish a sink tip?

The only time I fish a floater in winter is if I see one I want to try and skate up or if its shallow and slow enough that I feel its the best "tip" for the job. I am just verry curious why some gusy through floaters all winter while trying to get the bug down as deep as they can? does it have something to do with the way the fly swims without a sink tip or something else... verry curious to hear what the thought behind this method is.

Tight lines and looking forward to winter steel!
Levi
 
#8 ·
The same question can be asked- If all you are trying to do is fish deep, why bother with a sink tip and just swing a spoon? Better yet just side drift roe from a sled.

It is exponentially harder to fish the dryline with a deep sunk, SWUNG fly then it is to do the same with a tip. At least to do so with any effectiveness. You are already extremely limited by the water types that will fish it well. And if you stay away from front weighted jigs, sticking to 'irons' it gets even more restrictive. And if you do stick to irons you will find they don't hold fish like a stinger/detachable hook. It is all part of the game.
 
#6 ·
Levi:
For me, I just love casting and fishing a floating line. It's definitely a less effective way to fish in most winter conditions, except perhaps in shallow water as you noted and when trying to skate up a fish. It's an accepted fact with this method that once the fly gets deep, it stays deep for a smaller portion of the swing before hydrulics push the fly towards the surface. It's a matter of self-imposed restraint where the method is more important to me than potentially getting greater numbers of fish. It's just a personal choice and of course Bill McMillan's writings on the technique is what stirred in me the desire to pursue winter fish with a dryline. Fishing a sinktip is surely a more effective method due to the fly being kept in the zone much longer, I just find much joy with the dryline technique.

Todd
 
#11 ·
I would agree that grease line fishing is not anything like nymphing. It is a really enjoyable technique that presents the fly broad to the fish. But know you can use any kind of fly with this technique - if you do need to get deep I would suggest trying patterns on tubes or shanks that use smaller hooks - you can tie traditional patterns on these just as you can on full hooks - I really hate to see guys on the NU using 5/0 flies to try and get down as that size fly can certainly be detrimental to steelhead.
 
#12 ·
Every hook can be detrimental to the fish. 5/0's are no more dangerous. This comes up every couple of months and the same old, same old. The last three fish I have incidentally killed have been on stinger hooks and shanks. Tiny stingers. Using that logic I can conclude the deadliest hooks are shanks and stingers, which happens to be the most popular today. But that logic is wrong.

Until you actually walk in the shoes, meaning USE 5/0's A LOT on STEELHEAD, then you can come to your own informed conclusion. Stop assuming they are more dangerous because so-n-so says they are. I have a very close so-n-so who has hooked hundreds of winter fish on the dryline with 5/0 hooks using the 'deep wet fly swing'. NOT ONE SINGLE MORTALITY. Far different picture then what group think says. But he has mortally hook one using a stinger.

What does that say?

Nothing.
 
#13 ·
It's a matter of self-imposed restraint where the method is more important to me than potentially getting greater numbers of fish. It's just a personal choice and of course Bill McMillan's writings on the technique is what stirred in me the desire to pursue winter fish with a dryline. Fishing a sinktip is surely a more effective method due to the fly being kept in the zone much longer, I just find much joy with the dryline technique.
I don't think I could have described my feelings on this subject any better then the above quote. The first sentence is especially important to my thinking.
 
#16 ·
and thats why we all picked up swinging... because it provided us with more challenges in flyfishing world. And as we move on and learn, catching fish becomes a routine (in this case using skagits/tips) so there is nothing left to proof to yourself. Thats when you start looking for different approach to catch these fish and I hope thats where my journey will end - steelhead on a dryline!
 
#18 · (Edited)
I watched this thread go off the rails like so many before it. Domantas, the chap who started the thread was asking for information about winter fishing with floating lines. There are a few of us who do that, and we offered a few tips. Then the opinionated and/or uninformed Viking hordes clambered over themselves to correct us or simply act as naysayers. Yes, we do use long leaders and big flies. I use flies tied on Partridge M hooks from size 6 to 3/0 regularly. I have flies tied on 4/0 and 5/0 hooks for really deep, fast flows. They are heavy indeed. But they are not huge. To put things in perspective, a Partridge M 3/0 has the same gap (gape, I know) as a Mustad 3906B size 1. A trout hook. Hmm. Don’t speak Mustad? A Partridge M 2/0 has the same gap as a size 2 Teeny nymph hook. A trout hook. Not a flying gaff. So I hope that some of your anxiety is assuaged. I hope that I can reduce the anxiety of the forum members who are worried about a “great jeezly hook whizzing by their ears”.
Most of the flies I use are palmered hackle tied low water style, like the Paint Brush or Winter’s Hope. They sink like stones. No planing. So, casting a dead chicken tied to a gaff is a concern? No worries. But there will be math.... Think of your 14 foot two-hander as the hypotenuse of a right triangle. Tilt it sideways 45 degrees, and the tip is 10 feet away from your ear, and ten feet plus waist height above the ground. So the vertical plane of the cast line is TEN feet away. Cast away. Spey away. Still worried? Use a Belgian cast. The rod is always loaded, the fly doesn’t dive and the backcast is tilted away from you. There will be a half turn twist every cast, but better than that dead chicken-bearing gaff being buried in the back of your skull!
Great mention of tips, efficiency, ease of casting, yada, yada, yada. We will be casting trout style whilst you wrestle your chuck and duck rigs with their lead eyes out of the rocks. Bobbers? Not fly fishing. Really. Up here in the Great White North no bobbers or floating strike indicators are allowed in fly fishing only areas. Not my opinion, just the Provincial Regs. So, Domantas. Can I help you out at all? Send me a PM and I will be glad to share forty years of floating line experience. Buff.
 
#20 ·
I too like to fish the floating line in Winter and use Bill's fly's the Winters Hope and the Paint Brush tied on hooks up to 5/0 Partridges and 1/0 7970's. All the techniques described are ones Bill used and promoted. The one thing I would like to add is with regards to the water one chooses to fish, I tie the Winters Hope on 5/0 hooks, but it's a size 2 fly just on a large shank. Plenty big enough to see, slim enough to sink quickly and it works like a dream in the softer water edges I try to find in the Winter. The inside edge of bends/corners, tails of deep pools, where ever the water slows or the current slows enough to let a fish rest. I find I have to be selective in order to be successful, but I like this kind of fishing, I'm generally fishing water others pass by. Do I still fish "typical" Winter Steelhead runs, pools, seams, boulder gardens and riffles sure, but I always look for that soft water when fishing in the Winter.
rvreclus
 
#21 ·
Domantas:
You also inquired about leaders - I fish maxima hand tied leaders tapering down from 30# or 40# chameleon down to 10lb ultra green. My leaders run between 9-12', simple as can be.

Rv:
I agree about editing water for the dryline swing, I also look for softer flows since these water types allow the fly to stay deep longer on the swing and you are right that these areas are good resting water and often passed off by others.

Todd
 
#22 ·
Greased line technique

Domantas; I use a Windcutter spey on my ARC 1196 and it works just Dandy with 9’-13’ of fluocarbon leaders.

808steelheader; Respect, if numbers of fish was what it was all about, I’m sure there are lots of more efficient ways than greased line fishing. Let’s leave those methods to those that get a kick out of numbers.

As to the difference between Grease line fishing and “nymphing”/indicator fishing, Hugh Falkus deals with this question at great length and far more eloquent than I could possible hope to do.

Hugh Falkus wrote: A.E.H. Wood did write that it was important to avoid drag. Some misunderstood this to mean that the fly was to drift downstream, inert without any sideways movement. (nymphing/indicator fishing).

Hugh Falkus addresses this in his book “Salmon Fishing” by quoting A.E.H. Wood; my experience of greased line fishing has shown me that a Salmon is more ready to take a fly on or just under the surface than at any other level, except near to the bottom. I therefore aim at keeping the fly at the surface, or sink it right down to the stones; and I have entirely forsaken the ordinary practice, which causes the fly to swim in mid-water . . . Fishing in the usual way you lose control of the fly, more or less, once it is under water, and hardly know where it is or what it is doing. With the greased line, you are able to control the position and angle of the fly in the water and also to a great extent the speed at which it travels . . . I cast rather more upstream than the orthodox cast of a salmon fisherman, then lift my line of the water, and without moving the fly, turn over a loop of line upstream and across to prevent any drag on the fly.

Hugh Falkus then goes on; great nonsense has been made of this passage over the years by writers who have failed to grasp the simple truth it contains. Wood did not rely on words alone to convey his meaning, he drew diagrams (See drawings in Salmon Fishing by Eric Taverner and others). As they make clear, he did not advocate casting upstream of the rod so that his fly drifted inert. He meant exactly what he wrote: that he cast at more of an upstream angle than other people did. He had discovered what every experienced salmon fisherman must surely know today, that effective casting range can sometimes be increased by throwing more squarely across the river and putting a big mend in the line. This was something that Wood’s contemporaries could not do, for hitherto they had neither greased their lines nor understood to mend them.

Hugh Falkus continues; when thrown across a current a line is dragged into a big bow, so that left alone the fly comes whipping round at speed. By preventing “drag” , Wood meant he was preventing this line-belly from dragging his fly round too fast. And, as he wrote, he did this by turning over a loop of line- or “mending” as we call it: The lifting-over of a line is done to correct a fault, namely, to take the downstream belly out of a line and thus relieve the pull or pressure of the current on the line, which is communicated to the fly and exhibits itself as drag . . . Always have some reason for doing it: to prevent drag or, more often, to control the speed of the fly across the river.

Falkus then goes on; controlling the speed of the fly across the river is exactly what we try to do today. It is the essence of all our wet-fly fishing. There is nothing lifeless about the fly Wood describes. Indeed, how can there be? A fly that maintains its depth in a current of water can never be lifeless. Even when hanging motionless at the end of a straight line, the fly is swimming at the speed of the current. If the current is flowing at 3 mph, the fly will be swimming at that speed. The only way it can become lifeless is when is loses this water-speed, in which case it will start to sink. And if this happens, Wood is very clear about what to do; if the fly hardly moves and begins to sink, draw in line with your fingers very slowly and keep the fly as near the surface as you can . . . if the fly floats and skims when the line is fully extended down the pool, straighten the line on the surface and give it a sharp jerk, which should put the fly under; then fish it round to the bank at whatever speed you like.

What is lifeless about that?

There cannot be the slightest doubt that what Wood meant by “drag” was excessive belly in the line formed by the current, which makes the fly behave unnaturally for a supposedly living creature. As Wood wrote: if you swim across the river, you have to swim at an angle to the stream and make use of all the eddies. Let the fly do the same and act in a natural manner, not as if it were attached to a cart-rope.

Hugh Falkus ends: What better advice can be given on fishing the small fly? It is precisely because we want the fly to appear alive and to “act in a natural manner, not as if it was attached to a cart-rope” that we change our leader thickness to suit the size of the fly in use!

Wood ends; the greased line, if fished properly ( and this is by no means so every time )has no drag and often is all slack and crooked; but nevertheless you are controlling the speed of the fly and the angle at which it crosses the stream. Unless you have lost control of the line, you can at any time lift the line off the water and place it where it should be; you can then put the fly where you want and make it swim properly.

Johncke ;)
 
#23 ·
great

As to the difference between Grease line fishing and “nymphing”/indicator fishing, Hugh Falkus deals with this question at great length and far more eloquent than I could possible hope to do.


Hugh Falkus then goes on; great nonsense has been made of this passage over the years by writers who have failed to grasp the simple truth it contains. Wood did not rely on words alone to convey his meaning, he drew diagrams (See drawings in Salmon Fishing by Eric Taverner and others).
Johncke ;)
Johncke,

Enjoy the indepth responses as always!! Great post!
I too enjoy reading Falkus and Teverner ... great information and a lot of wisdoms in those books...:)

Here is some interesting video clips about Falkus from BBC, just thought some of people here might like to view it (fly fishing is on the later part of the video)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNuGnotR3IE&feature=player_embedded

Mark
 
#24 ·
Johncke, traditional greased line is fine and dandy, but keeping a fly near the surface, preventing it from sinking, no mention of feeding line or deliberate rod tip manipulation to keep it sunk and control the depth of swim, etc is off the point from what's more commonly effective and advocated in winter floating line angling - the deep wet fly swing - as already mentioned above in several posts
 
#26 ·
SSPey, I understand your point, but I politely beg to differ. As mentioned in the Wood quotation, his point with the greased line was to fish the greased line with the fly in or close to the surface or at the very bottom. To do this he advocates the use of mending, thereby feeding line into the cast. What is tip manipulation but minor mending? He even advocates to retrieve line when the fly is “dragging”, i.e. loosing it speed relative to the water, whether it be in or at the surface or at the bottom.

I therefore aim at keeping the fly at the surface, or sink it right down to the stones.

Johncke ;)
 
#27 ·
The method Wood used to fish a sunk fly is very accurately described in the book. It is NOT the same as greased line. This is the method being discussed here and called 'deep wet fly swing'. Bill added the backmend(s) to facilitate faster sinking and eventually more control in what is happening.
 
#28 ·
I enjoy and somewhat miss the discussions on variations here even when there were debates. The only thing I don't miss is "this is best,does,all".

I think it's common for flyfisher's to engage in subcategory's. Like playing a guitar, electric, acoustical , pick'en.

You find what you enjoy and those of similar interest. Get a taste,feel of something slightly different at the very least.

Weighted flys or those tied on heavy irons to sink fast,, get down on mono leaders, if allowed to drift, faster than the fastest sink tips. Many of these flies approach 12 i.p.s. sink rate.
I don't feel thats such a disadvantage as some whom partake do in this thread. It is not as if a standard wire hook and size are used to get deep. One can get quite precise getting down quick and allowing tension for swing to work surgically a few foot zone say near submerged boulders or other. True in strong currents it will not stay down like a sink tip through the swing but, in moderate currents like tail outs everything is slower and they (weighted fly's/fast sink flys) stay down plenty. Sink tips lift also afterall. Getting down very fast, entering a specific zone and allowing tension,swing to lift.....take away......flee the offering.......is not such a disadvantage of deep wet fly swing in many cases. Also, the take in certain zones is likely to come just prior to the swing out,lift via broadside depth.

Perhaps the biggest advantage if using a well built leader is not lifting,extracting tips and the fun of following the footsteps of a writer or ones methodology which you happened to like,agree with,enjoy.

There are sub categories, styles, rituals and traditions of fishing a dry line with deep sunk fly's swung. I suspect there are very few here whom have not done it many times. Like so much in flyfishing it's really simple yet, can be in depth when history or tradition comes into play.

I find it interesting and am intrigued in particular by those enjoying it in a retro manor with bamboo or fiberglass rods........that sounds like a hoot. My actual experience with heavy irons size 2 and larger on Steelhead I, C & R is less favorable.
 
#30 ·
I am a fence sitter on this..I am very slowly trying to do more and more of it...my problem is I'm still into the numbers game...as much as I would like to say otherwise...I haven't built the total trust in my skill level to do it 100% of the time...

So, while I'm a slow learner I will say this....Fishing a dryline is by far the most enjoyable way to fish I have ever employed... I fish for summer and winter steelhead and have never enjoyed and rarely used heavy sink tips...A type three tip is normally on my rod most of the year...but after reading Bill and Jock Scotts book I have changed how I swing and will never go back...interesting to me at least is my numbers have increased by this method..Makes so much more sense to me and I don't leave a run scratching my head anymore...I know I have done my best with what I've chosen to fish and if I didn't get a fish, then there isn't one in there that I wanted to hook..can leave them to the beads and T-17 guys...


William, I'm very relieved to read what you wrote about "big irons" I have been having a hard time fishing them as just by how they look I assumed the damage would be significantly more..This comes as some relief to me as I have relied on tubes mainly because they "dress up" the closest to a Jackson hook...

I'm actually glad more guys don't go this route as shameful as that sounds...I think the guys doing it might understand that...most probably won't though..
 
#31 ·
Paul,

The big irons can and do leave a bigger hole with possible soft tissue damage. In my experience this soft tissue damage is USUALLY no more than any 'safe' hook that ends up cutting and not staying put. This damage isn't of any major concern or I would have to stop fishing. As this can and does happen with every hook I have used. Including stingers.

If you do use them you will find they hook so-so and hold even worse. That is a big point of fairly soft metal you are trying to drive in. Tough to get a really good point on them, and it doesn't last long once you do. Tick a rock and it is back to dull.

To help them hold a bit better bend the point slightly towards the eye, closing the gap. M's come ever so slightly out pointed. Siwash slightly and close that gap. It does make a difference.

These limitations are all part of the charm of the method. Where you know going in both hands are tied behind your back while you wear a blindfold. Now hit that moving target you can't see...

When that line does finally come tight, and it will if you stick with it, you will remember that first grab forever.

William
 
#32 ·
To help them hold a bit better bend the point slightly towards the eye, closing the gap. M's come ever so slightly out pointed. Siwash slightly and close that gap. It does make a difference.
William , do you find that by bending the hook you have created a weak spot in the hook ??

I have tried to put a slight bend in a few hooks that have resulted in lost fish and the hook broken about half way in the bend .

Maybe I'm doing something wrong ..... do you heat your hooks prior to bending ??






Mike
 
#36 ·
lots of fun!

During my last winter on Vancouver Island, I put in lots of time playing with this method and caught some nice fish. I used AJ heavy wire spey hooks (1.5) for my fishing and stuck to shallower runs. It is a very rewarding way to fish. I used long leaders made from Maxima and fished spey patterns such as the orange heron. After seeing how reservoir anglers in the UK use fluorocarbon to fish buzzers deeper, I would now use fluoro instead for my leaders.

It was fun to see how close in to the beach a fish would take the fly. My last fish of the season was a lovely big buck that took in a foot of water. Edit your water and use mends when necessary. I fished this technique on larger rivers and used either 15' or 16' rods with long belly lines. Most of my motivation to use this technique was that it would allow me to get more use out of my long lines, which aren't any fun with tips.
 
#39 ·
It might be worth mentioning that McMillan was casting a single hand rod when employing the deep sunk fly methods he writes about in his book on dry-line Steelhead fishing. He was also fishing the Washougal most of the time, a small to mid sized river. Others at this time were casting sink tips but they were awkward to cast with a single hander and achieving much distance to was difficult. Spey rods, of course allow the winter angler to gracefully cover much more water with a deep swung fly in the winter.
 
#40 ·
Sorry been too busy to post photos of the bent hooks. Thank you Mike for posting a photo.

It is also worth noting the method works just fine with two handed rods on the biggest winter steelhead rivers. Bill also found this out as well. And has been using said rods on big rivers for quite some time.

The method did not come about due to awkward casting of sink tips on single hand rods. It is the challenge of getting a fly deep, keeping it deep without using a sink tip. More or less playing the game with one hand tied behind your back (on some water). That challenge is the charm, heart and soul of the method. You are simply going to be fishing less effective. Less effective water with a less effective method.
 
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