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Scandi heads

8K views 31 replies 24 participants last post by  max.garth 
#1 ·
Just wondering if any body has some advice on scandi heads. I have bought scandi heads for my spey rods with the advice of my spey guru and in every occcurence he has gone lighter than the rod specs. he sold me a 375 grain for my Beulah platinum 13'2 while the webpage has it recommendation for over 400 grains. Same with my t&t 13'0 9 weight he's sold me a 550 grain head which is recommended for my burky 13'9 8 weight. Why would his preference be on the lighter weight? Don't want to insult the guy by asking him. I basically fish for atlantic salmon and haven't done any steelhead applications yet. Another question. When fishing with scandi heads I have heard that longer leaders are recommended. With a floating poly leader should I use a full leader size at the end or straight mono? Started out with long bellies and am trying the scandi because it seems like less effort, Just not fond of all the stripping.
 
#2 ·
My advice



This is a difficult question because rarely do other casters have the same style as you may have. If you are not happy with the advice that you have received and do not wish to approach the person that has sold you the lines, then I suggest that you contact a professional line builder and designer--a very good person to speak to is Steve Godshall. I would phone him tell him what your thoughts and requirements are, he will give you his advice and would design a line for your particular rod or rods, if you asked him to build you a line for your own needs and style. I will list his information below. When you are casting a Skagit or Scandi head, stripping is part of the method. There is simply no other way. Best of luck.

Steve Godshall,
Email- stevegodshall@charter.net
Phone- 1-541-840-2594
Medford-Oregon
 
#3 ·
As Harley suggests getting a custom cut line is good advice.Your spey guy's recommendation of 375gr for the Platinium seems light and is probably correct for someone with great underhand technigue,but not for the rest of us.I'll give you an example.A couple of years ago I purchased a used 13' 8/9 underhand [Scandi ] rod.It came with a perfectly matched custom cut line of 448gr.The combination did not perform well for me.I then tried some heavier lines and settled on two,a 480gr compact scandi and a 510 steelhead scandi.Both these lines made the rod come alive for me.As you already noted a line of over 400gr would probably be better for you on the platinium.
Tight Lines
Copsamps
 
#4 ·
A "+1" for contacting Steve to have him build 'you' a line (won't cost you a penny more than something off the shelf). Steve can do just 'a head,' or a whole line depending upon what you want.

Have several of Steve's lines and all of them just preform wonderfully for THE rod they were designed for. Steve designs his lines for a specific rod AND the specific casters 'style' of casting. Amazing to have him hand you a line and tell you (effectively) 'This is not the line 'you' would probably have chosen, but this is THE line you and the rod need.' :hihi:

Haven't found him to be wrong yet. :D
 
#6 ·
According with RIO's site http://www.rioproducts.com/skin/summit/pdf/2012_RIO_Spey_Line_Recs.pdf , the range of your various rods depending on your expertise is (master-beginner) 385-450 for Beulah, 510-550 for your T&T, and 510-550 for Burky. Therefore, it would appear that your Beulah is light and your T&T is heavy: if this is correct and your are not an expert, yours casting should be better with the heavier T&T than the lighter Beulah and vice-versa if you are on the expert side.

As for the leader's lenght, 3-3.5 feet over an above the polyleader.... I like a 14 feet polyleader.

André
 
#7 ·
Have you tried them yet? I don't see anything wrong. You have not added in the poly/versi spey leader weight yet, which with 10'-15' versi leaders put's into the zone. The geographic region of Canada I suspect you will be fishing Atlantic Salmon is noted for amongst the clearest rivers in the world. I could certainly see why one would ideally preferance touch & go cast's there with light anchors, finese Scandi as compared to power Scandi with more horsepower under the hood in that region. It's the birthplace, dial in grounds of finesse,long,olive camo tip'ed Scandi heads like the Rio AFS on rods exactly that size. A cup of coffee bet, say's that's very similar grains that Simon Gawesworth, Henrik Mortensen and other noted caster/fisherman would use there, why not you? Being "new" really does not need to change that any more than loading a 905 single hand Trouter for dry's with a 5 wf-f rather than a 6. The larger 9wt x 550grain + poly leader should handle any fly size you would use there, even in high water, with light Scandi it would seem to me.

IMO - Learning to touch and go (single and snake) spey cast does not get easier, increasing grains, to upper zones, unlike waterborn - sa casts may to some. Likely of more importance, to include his grain choice for you but, also for your overall ease of use while learning is your HEAD TO ROD LENGTH RATIO. If he has you on the short end of the stick (likely does for your ease) it should also be on the bottom end of the grain rate scale. A .2 cent wager bets, he has you short ratio and ideal grains for such, starting out. The short ratio will make it much easier for you starting out.

I give this un-known instructor the benefit of doubt personally on this one;) I take it he is working with you in person? If so, can't get any better than that and sure the heck beats mail order/web attempts.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I am not really sure what is meant by mail order/web attempts--BUT--I do know that talking to a person on Steve Godshall level or trying lines for your particular style from Poppy at the Redshed are both a great way to have confidence about your purchase. Or you could choose to take advice from a regular style sports shop--BUT-- there again to each his own. All I can say is that Steve has built me five different lines and I must say that each and every one works great. Before I started talking with Steve I probably bought and sold 12-15 lines based on people`s advice looking for the magic bullet. I did not find anything close till I talked things over with Steve. I guess, to each his own.

Regards.
 
#9 ·
... i prefer lighter too

Not that my opinion's worth a hoot, but I agree earnestly with willi's observation in that:

A) You plan to use the "Scandi" heads in a strict touch-and-go capacity, i.e. single speys and snake rolls...

B) You intend to employ a STRONG emphasis on a bottom or underhand dominated forward stroke and...

C) You're considering regularly incoporating 10 - 15ft sinking poly/versi-leaders into the mix

Then I'd too would venture that you are probably in a comfortable zone for excellent performance. :cool:

Dunno why, but I also find many mfc's "Scandi" line/rod recs a touch heavier than I prefer for my own touch-and-go underhand casting... especially when incorporating sinking poly/versi-leaders as their grain weights WILL get carried in the loading d-loop during the forward stroke too.

... just my 2 pennies, take it or leave, I won't be offended! ;)

Nate

P.S. I'd bet the fellow who recommended your lines to you probably wouldn't be offended a bit if you asked him to better explain his thinking/rationale... or at least, he shouldn't be! :eek:
 
#10 ·
Harely,
???
He wrote he is consulted by a "Spey guru" Where does "sport shop" fit in?
Poppy the red shed was not mentioned.
My point he is working with someone and has already purchased lines. Are you suggesting he should ditch them and buy new from this "Steve Godshall" chop shop?

WHERE IS STEVE GODSHALL SPONSOR ADD HERE EXACTLY? Obviously a little army of marketeer props marching around line threads, where is the sponsor add?
 
#11 ·
Harely,
???
He wrote he is consulted by a "Spey guru" Where does "sport shop" fit in?
Poppy the red shed was not mentioned.
My point he is working with someone and has already purchased lines. Are you suggesting he should ditch them and buy new from this "Steve Godshall" chop shop?


I have nothing pro or con to say about him but, WTF is with this constant chant by the same few where ever a line question comes up? Lobbied?P

He is making building stuff WTF don't he put up a sponsor add as he is obviously selling / marketing here?
Good Evening willi:
You are absolutely right in every thing that you have stated--I just quite simply read the post wrong-by the way Steve works for Bob Meiser who is a sponsor. I especially am enjoying your attitude and your vivid choice of abbreviations such as WTF-Have a pleasant evening. Oh, by the way, I see that you made some changes to your post from the time that I took a quote from it.
 
#13 ·
When casting light flies, my total leader (including my polyleader) is up to 2 times the length of my spey rod.

I don't think you have to get a custom line built. See if you can return the line you have and get a heavier one. If a scandi line is too light, I think you'll probably blow a lot of anchors.

I guess one way to add some weight to a line is to go with a long, 14 foot or so, polyleader, but normally on a 13 foot rod I'd go with a 10 foot polyleader.

Finally, I'd call the guys up at Rio and ask them what weight line they would recommend.

Randy
 
#16 ·
Started out with long bellies and am trying the scandi because it seems like less effort, Just not fond of all the stripping.
Interesting thread.. I figured the permit78 must be doing something right to complain about stripping :)

My only advice would be; when/if the opportunity is there try a few different heads.. see how they feel.
 
#17 ·
I have been in Permit's situation, with a few rods and lines that I questioned or had doubts about, sometimes with thoughts in my head like, " I wonder if X line casts better on this rod than Y line?".
So I periodically take a half dozen rods/reels, a wallet full of heads, and a flask down to the river and give things a workout. Grass casting doesn't quite cut it for dialing rod/line combos in.

Line recs are only that--recommendations--
 
#19 ·
Permit, if you are able to attend, the Salmon River, NY Speynation gathering is being held on Saturday July 14(read about it in the "claves and other gatherings" section of this site). This is a great event and it would give you an opportunity to try many different lines on your rod, as well as get some expert advice. Tight Lines!
 
#22 ·
Mike,

You mean this?

"We have now designed our own two handed line systems suitable for all two handed rods
These are lines designed by Steve Godshall, and why we call them the Steve Godshall Specials: The SGS lines "


Yea, i seen that.

Is that what is meant by - contact Steve and have him build a line for your specific rod - I have had Steve build several custom lines for my rod- which is posted repeatably ?
Seem's they would just link to Meiser's SGS Series for ease.

Thats what I meant by "modifying,services,manufacturing" Mike, maybe you missed it?

Retail fly shop sponsors here carry Scientific Anglers brand "designed" lines but, I have seen direct links to S.A., "contact S.A. similar " removed,discouraged as Airflo and Rio pay for sponsorship. Ditto for other gear,services,custom rods,etc.etc.etc. unless linked to/through the sponsor and part of, for that directly.

But, I have already been informed "he works for Meiser". So, I guess that means 100%.

Your reply/my quote - my "apology" Mike, maybe you "missed" it. Look again.
 
#23 ·
I love it

I laughed out loud when I read Speyducer's post begining with "please wind your neck in.." Thats awesome... Can I use that? Can't wait to yell "hey buddy...wind your neck in".. in traffic sometime:chuckle:

Guess there's a nerve touched somewhere in this disscussion.. been there aswell, but we're all big boys. Seems like sometimes there's a push for products to answers problems and not real answers. think thats what set this off

Ps I'm not a scand-ite but seems to me recomending a 3' to 4' leader of a poly is a bit short. So Permit78 if I were you I'd tie on a leader that seems stuipdly long...then make it longer. as in most fly fishing, a long er leader is usually a plus not a negative

hey willi.. remember... People, there the worst!!:chuckle: I blame permit78, see waht you started:chuckle:
 
#24 ·
When working with floating set-ups I prefer not to us a polyleader. I use a hand tied tapered leader about 13' long ending in either a 10 or 8 lbs tippet. I start with a but sectiin of 40lbs mono to give a good transition from line to leader. I find this gives the softist presentation for atlantics. I use maxima chameleon here in our tee colored waters but up on the gaspe would switch to ultra green or clear.
 
#25 ·
Scandi Line

I would think that with a Scandinavian line that wieghed 425 grains would still be light if you want a traditional Scandi feel, use a lot of body and like accelerating the rod fairly aggressively.

Scandi 475 will be right on the money, especially if you are fairly new to spey rods and want a line that will match well.

Steve Godshall is good, we make lines specifically matched to the grain and length, John Hazels Steelhead Scandi made by Rio is good.

For your leader: Yes, a hand tied mono leader will be fine for a leader on a Scandi line. I like Airflo 10' and 14' Floating and Intermediate Poly leaders on that rod. The difference between 10'/14'...buy one of each and fish the one that you like on the rod. Poly leaders are great because the larger diameter grabs water nicely giving a solid anchor to cast from. 36"-48" of tippet is a general rule of thumb and adjust from there depending on feel.

The Leaders are long because with the Scandi system the entire line is in the "D" loop minus 6" to a 1' on the water prior to delivery. This is due to line taper, line length and casting style. So, your leader is your loading mechanism whereas a traditional spey will use a bunch of the front taper as the anchor and loading mechanism. General rule of thumb is 1.5 x rod length and make fine tune adjustments from there. You can easily accomplish a 1.5 x rod length leader with either 10', 14' Poly Leaders or hand tied leaders.

Don't worry if you buy a line from another company and it says 470 or 480. If it is right in that 475 grain range + or- a tad and from 31'5"-33" it will be awesome on your rod.

I think Rio 510-550 is for lining our 13'2" 7 weight with a Skagit Head. At least it should be as I did the rec's for Rio?

Hopefully that helps out and have fun!

Bruce Berry~
 
#28 ·
I am planning on attending the spey get together in Pulaski. Been planning to make it 4 a couple of years. I definitely make it this year. The "spey guru" reference is for a local fly shop of some note. Got some spey lessons from him and learned the most from him.I can't find many spey shops locally. Not like the west coast where it seems like a craze. Thanx 4 the advice. Didn't mean to cause so much controversy. I guess that's the point of the chat line. I really got to get out there casting those different lines with the longer rods not just my switch.
 
#29 ·
78, there is no reason for you to apologize. You were looking for help and your thread got hijacked by someone who injected his own agenda. Not unusual, but unfortunately the nature of the beast. I'm sorry I contributed to the hijack. In the end you got some very good information.

Best Regards,
sixheads
 
#30 ·
I imagine it would (like a few others have said) depend on your casting stroke, and prefered rod load, on my 8wt echo dh i use a 475gr vision scandi head and its good, i was recommended to go with a 525+ scandi head, but if you like to cast scandi lines off the tip of your rod with really tight casting stroke then a lighter line (i think) is better for it, if you like a heavier and deeper bend then clearly you go up in grains, suppose one could ask what the point of scandi heads are if you basically end up on par with a skagit head in grains on any given rod? sure it would help beginners learning to feel whats going on and allow things to slow down a bit so ones timing can be a bit off.
But if you are a dap hand at it then why fish such the heavier end of scandi lines?
Personal choice in the end i guess.
My two cents :)
 
#32 ·
I think its interesting but ALL DH rods, scandi types, which, in my view,
seem to be something different that described in some posts. Like I use
them for overhead casting, and fit lines that meet the rods particular GDE,
the Grain Delivery Envelope,like the actual load range for that particular
rod.
I use heads in 45' length, and in weights from 550 to 750gns and I find
that its better if the heads are thin, like sinkers S7 in the 12# class
Like a chunk of a 12# long belly line. Or if the head doesn't make the
weight, use a 13#.
Cheers MaxG.
 
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