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Distance from a unique perspective

5K views 21 replies 16 participants last post by  locvetter 
#1 ·
This will not be my only entry to this new thread. My perspective is unique as I am, by actual count, the worst distance caster that entered SOR 2012.

They say it takes a thousand repetitions to make a new skill second nature, and several thousand repetitions to overwrite an old skill with a new one. (They, in this case, are unnamed firearms trainers, who probably are not strong on the science of motor learning.) That said, they are probably correct.

I have no way to prove that I could cast further before going to SOR. I am confident that had I been able to put to use what I learned on Wednesday and Thursday, "I coulda been a ...." Well probably not a "contenda," but maybe not made it painful for audience and me alike.

Some may recall, I started a distance thread a year or so ago. Well, everything in that thread, in terms of what good casters are doing, was/is correct. BUT THERE'S SO MUCH MORE!!

I won't write much here about the neurophysiology of "Muscle memory," though I did get my MS in that. I plan to write about some added technique details, as I currently understand them, on how the many greats did so well this past weekend.

It can be stated with absolute certainty that casting 153' and beyond, (the wall or better at SOR), requires technical understanding and execution. Further, since the complex motions take so short a time, the patterns of motion cannot be adjusted consciously during the effort. The pattern must be programmed beyond the conscious intellect, into, quite literally, the spine of the caster.

It is good to know that in order for patterns to become so repeatable, they must be repeated and success appreciated such that the brain feels pleasure. Linking the correct motion with pleasure probably induces that pattern of motion to be learned at a spinal level, thus committed to "muscle memory." It is, essentially, fun stuff.

Just as there are many golfers who understand what is needed very well, yet cannot compete at higher levels because of some combination of life circumstance and choice of parents, so it is that I must accept that I'll never beat the best at this game. I still enjoy trying to get better at it. (Admittedly, my embarassing performance on Sunday shook my dream of ever getting really good. It did set the bar such that it will be easy to improve, as I really could not get much worse. Hope is essential to motivation. I've self checked. I still have hope.

Technique details to be posted if there seems to be any interest.

Thanks for reading.
 
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#2 ·
Loc,

You are so right about this muscle memory thing... it simply boggles my mind thinking about the number of repetitions that Gerard Downey has made in order to became the casting machine he has... it is stunning.

I have been going to Spey-O-Rama from its inception and I was a decent caster back then, but over the years I have learned how much I need to learn. I am still making the several thousand repetitions you refer to replace a (bad) muscle memory. Over the past three years I have had some of the very best distance guys tutoring me and finally, just this year - some of it is starting to stick! I still struggle with all the little things while in the heat of competition in the big pond, but I am starting to see the light. As you indicate the little things necessary for success are numerous and happen in rapid succession and if you have to think about it you are doomed to failure - so as my friend James Chalmers of Team Carron says in his inimitable style "If you think, you're f*'#ed".
 
#4 ·
Excellent post Loc, I enjoy your observations and subtle humor.
I devoured the other threads you started about distance casting as well and will be watching this thread for your further wit and wisdom, and honesty. The fact that you have the balls to enter the contest just because you love to cast is a great inspiration. You have my admiration.
 
#5 ·
well done post and i really admire your honesty. you set out to do it and you did and that's something to be proud of in itself. anyone remember the Monty Python skit where the kid screws up in class and is told he will be playing rugby with "the masters" that afternoon? that is about what you were up against and you know what? you went and did it anyway and that is highly commendable. as you said yourself you have no where to go but up and here's to you're next event being another step up that ladder.

congratulations! the first step is always the hardest.
 
#6 ·
I'm envious of all you folks that attend the SOR every year- the opportunity to see casting at that level, to get some times and instruction from such accomplished casters.

And LOC, to have the stones to enter is an accomplishment in itself. I do think if you can keep the competition out of your mid, the casting and improvement on a day to day basis are probably what you are really after, enjoying the process. I competed at a lot of things when I was young, then later realized what I real enjoyed was the practice. Too late I realized you need to play like you are practicing. Pretty much the same thought as Kush quoted from Mr. Chalmers- If you think, your f'd.

I for one would love to hear more about the details that you picked up. One of these days I hope to make it to the event- as a spectator.
 
#8 ·
Loc's opener reminds me of two rather applicable sayings from the cutting horse pen:

The last place competitor beats the first place spectator by a mile.

If ya cain't piss with the big dogs, stay on the porch.

Hurrah to Loc for venturing off the porch and playing rugby with the masters!
 
#9 ·
Wanna cast far while a bunch of people are lookin at you?


Cast cleanly and keep your head screwed on tight.

I learned what REAL fly casting was at SOR 2009,not just distance but efficiency.
What I was doing before was a butcher job.
Gerard's casting is what it is not from brute force and power but accuracy and efficiency.

My first SOR I had my running line jam in the reel,I remember looking down and seeing waves eminating from my legs.
I was a wreck.
This year was the first year I was in control of my nerves,I could get myself worked up in a practice round and be calm the next and would not let a bad cast get to me.
I was super calm on qualifying and focused on being smooth and relaxed.
I essentially laid up and played it safe.
My goal this year was to be able to cast on Sunday.
Sunday I ramped it up just a bit and did even better.

Some changes I made in my casting almost 4 years ago are now starting to pan out,in this transition there were days my casting litteraly fell apart,I can remember meltdowns at the Sandy clave and Red shed competition a few years ago:(
The price was well worth it:D
I wish I had seen the light and changed earlier and a HUGE thanks to Nobuo Nodera for showing the lil tip on technique that changed everything.

This year two two shiny trinkets I saw from Geir and Gerard are I think going to help me get to the next level-thank you both for the wordless casting lessons.

When at SOR keep the eyes open,ego in check and mind open.

Thunderstorms are gone,I'm of to practice:devil:
 
#10 ·
well Loc, being the "worst" out of a couple dozen of the best casters in the world says something, eh?:smokin:
I admire your journey.
...Waiting for some nuggets to trickle out of this thread for poor mullockers like myself to nibble on in the shadows.:D

congratulations on a sterling presence.
Bob
 
#11 ·
From esthetics to elements

Thinking about distance casting is way not sufficient to get good at distance casting, but necessary. Heretofore, when I have thought about it, my tendency has been to break it down to its myriad component parts. All the greats at SOR have many elements that are very similar, caster to caster, but they also have a bigger commonality. They are each and every one smooth, graceful, demonstrating a power with the appearance of effortlessness. It is beautiful, pleasurable, for both the observer AND the caster. That is what they say and many of us have gotten off one or a few casts that undeniably feel good.

There is scientific evidence that repeating pleasurable motions causes our central nervous system (CNS) to do something subsequent to performing the task. Perhaps hours later or during sleep, at a very different level of the brain than that which controlled the conscious performance, the CNS creates an ability to repeat the task more easily, at a more primitive neural level, sometimes at the level of the cerebelum or even the spinal cord. Think sex, satisfying hunger, or even defeating a threat, thus creating the feeling of security. No one really understands the brain science fully, but we can all accept that we tend to repeat activities that give us pleasure. We tend to learn and get better at things that feel good. Doing such good things on subsequent days further improves and reinforces. Pleasure facilitates creation of "muscle memory."

So one thing sure, I intend to seek casting motions that feel good. I intend to work on combining elements, many of which I plan to detail in this thread, which create beautiful, pleasurable, smooth, tight looped, in balance, powerful, slackless, graceful motions that my brain will therefore want me to learn and repeat. I will become an automaton of reflexive casting happiness. It's gonna be fun. To be complete one should mention that some delusional constructs can be fun as well.
 
#18 ·
There is scientific evidence that repeating pleasurable motions causes our central nervous system (CNS) to do something subsequent to performing the task. Perhaps hours later or during sleep, at a very different level of the brain than that which controlled the conscious performance, the CNS creates an ability to repeat the task more easily, at a more primitive neural level, sometimes at the level of the cerebelum or even the spinal cord. Think sex, satisfying hunger, or even defeating a threat, thus creating the feeling of security. No one really understands the brain science fully, but we can all accept that we tend to repeat activities that give us pleasure. We tend to learn and get better at things that feel good. Doing such good things on subsequent days further improves and reinforces. Pleasure facilitates creation of "muscle memory."
maybe this is why I'm making spey casts before I fall asleep???
thank you for an interesting thread, Loc.

Brent
 
#12 ·
Moving now from cast-in-total esthetics to vital minutia. #1

The 180 degree rule must be honored. That is to say that a line defined by the anchor point and the rearmost point of the D-loop must be parallel to the intended line to the target. There are many things that contribute to a highly energized optimally directed D-loop. The one that has been emphasized to me several times, by some really great casters, is the short but powerful lower hand thrust towards the target that is done at the end of the sweep.

One must experiment personally to determine exactly the timing, and the force, and the exact directions. Indeed, just the direction can tune or destroy an entire cast. Parallel to the surface and exactly towards the target for an inch or two might be a default, but slight adjustments up or down will definitely influence stick, -- a lot. The distance this thrust moves the butt of the rod, which is how much work (=power x distance) you put into it can have a major impact on the speed and trajectory, particularly of the lower limb of the D-loop, the bend of the rod, and ultimately the power one can exert in the forward stroke without overpowering, pulling the anchor, and looking the fool.

So, it is really important. But, as James Chalmers so eloquently offers, "If you think about it during the cast, you're #^%*'d."

Has anyone shared that the Carron team, on their powder blue T-shirts had a stencil emblazed: "JUST WHACK IT?" Oh, The amount of practice that goes into being able to just whack it!
 
#13 ·
Next topic will be>>>>>>>

The lift, and it's relationship to the set up cast.

That is, if I can find time to write it during the day. The two I wrote overnight were only up for a few hours. This site is wonderfully busy, isn't it.
 
#15 ·
Loc

You have my total respect and admiration for having the balls to walk into that pond and compete in front of all these people.Regardless of your totals, consider this your initial baptism into distance casting and you will certainly improve ,of this I have no doubt, as you have an appetite for knowledge and willingness to learn the technique which will take you to the next level.
I wish you good luck with your quest and do not give up hope, the key to "Whack It" is control, timing and use of both hands.:smokin:

All the Best.

James Chalmers.
 
#16 ·
When we learn to Spey cast, the lift is usually an early lesson.

We are all taught (except Knut Systrand) to start our cast with a lift, with the rod tip at or near the surface of the water. (Knut is spectacularly different, ending his setup cast with the rod at about his sweep height and starting from there.)

Here was a problem with my casting I only recently recognized: I finish my distance cast with my bottom hand over on the top had side. This is proper technique for distance -- or at least everyone in the finals did it. This is true for my set up cast as well. (Not sure if that is best, but....) Problem is that The nicest transition from nice slow lift to either loop of the Snake or Sweep of the single spey is done with the rod held more or less across the body, with the bottom hand over on the bottom hand side and the top hand over on the top hand side, bending only at the elbows, slooooollly. Why was it that I was so slow to pick up that I had to MOVE my bottom hand over to the bottom hand side to get to this better position. I was doing my lift well when being coached on the lift and finishing my forward stroke well. I do not like my answer to: "How dumb can I be?"

The lift for distance casting is not really comparable to a trap shooter's shotgun lift, with the muzzle pointing to the target, but rather the rod is pointing at the dangle (set up cast). For the single spey the body moves to face the target early in the sweep. For the snake most started the lift already facing the target.

Whatever is done, all must be Slow, smooth, slack free.

Next time: Nemeses - Trunking, hooking, creep and overpowering. (No, they are not just for beginners.)
 
#17 ·
Just as a side note, there is another Norwegian who doesn't start lift low. He doesn't much have a lift actually. The caster is Eirik Larsen. If interested, search in youtube with following words and you'll find my footage from 1,5 years back and you'll see: burud eirik
 
#22 ·
Great illustration of two things



SMS,

Thanks for suggesting the YouTube of "Eirik Hernes Larsen, 17feet, 11 inches.300fps. 10/10/2009."

Not only does he start from a position that many get to with a lift, but the accellllerrratttttinggggg from so slow one checks to see if the pause was touched, to huge powerful speed, both in the sweep and the forward stroke. Best illustration!

It was Greg Bencivenga that pointed out my lack of smooth acceleration. It is tough to appreciate in real time. Greg does it superbly. I am proving it is difficult to learn.
 
#19 ·
Hi Loc,

I've been following this thread as time allows me to get on here. You are definitely seeking a really good cast by the sounds of it. I am trying to get a little longer on the cast myself but am only solid at distances 65 - 100' or under if need be. Comfort is a real factor as you have said here. Once I found a lift - sweep - set and cast that is actually comfortable I stuck with it. That style perhaps is what keeps me from extending much beyond 100', when I push for more I lose that comfortable feeling and relaxed pace. Every now and then I mess up and the fly goes farther than I expected it would if I'm searching the water and that's a good feeling. Being a target water fisher I don't cast as often as some on here, I tend to pick my fights rather than look for them.

Still, this is interesting,

Ard
 
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