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  #1  
Old 04-30-2012, 12:40 AM
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Common Cents System & Switch Rods

Hey all,

Just trying an at home approach to dial in the grain windows for two rods. I'd be out on the water but got hockey playoffs to watch, so was messing around and trying to figure out how to apply the "Common Cents System" (CCS) as explained here: http://www.common-cents.info/

Here's the numbers for deflection equal to 1/3 the length of the rod, each being an 11ft switch and relatively similar in rod number(1/3 length of 11ft is 44):

Rod A loaded to 44" tip deflection with 60 canadian pennies (~2.3g per penny) or ~138g/2125grains

Rod B loaded to 44" tip deflection with with 47 canadian pennies or ~108g/1665grains

So, assuming one can use the CCS with spey/switch rods, what grains would you use to effectively load that rod for these four casting styles:

Overhead (Shooting head) =
Touch & Go (Scandi) =
Short belly spey (45-55ft head) =
Waterloaded (Skagit)=

If there is a better way to estimate a grain window for a given two hander, I`m all ears.

Also, bonus bragging rights if you can correctly identify the two rods in question, and their respective designated rod weights

Both are rods I built from blanks, and each blank cost me under $200 CAD.

Cheers
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  #2  
Old 04-30-2012, 07:40 AM
ibboone ibboone is offline
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When I did this test I did the 10% of lengh from rod handle test.
Example=== Rod from grip to tip 100 inches. Rod needs to flex 10 inches. Take the weight of pennies and get you ern number. Compare to chart and get your rod weight.

I did this test with a single hand rod that I built and did it with 2 switch rods. The single hand 3/4 wt rod tested came in at a high 4 almost a 5 so I throw a 5 wt line on it and does good.

The switch rods I done are a 3/4 wt blank that came in at a low 5 so I set this rod up to throw everything that a single hand 5 wt rod would throw. The skagit line I had for this rod was 290 and scadi came in a 265. Rod worked great. Ended up selling this rod to buddy of mine because I am working on another lighter rod.

The other rod I done the test on was a modified TFO pro 14ft 9 wt I took away the lower section and now it is 10'8" long. This rod tested in at a 9 wt.
I still have this rod but have never set it up to fish with. I took it out last night and did some overhead casting with it. 528 gr 34 ft scandi head. Line was a little heavy the the rod could handle it.

I also did a 8wt batson switch rod and it came in at a high 7 almost an 8. I have a 450 skagit from beulah on it but would like something lighter.

I don't know if the common cents system works with a spey rod. I originally asked if anyone had done this test with spey rod and never got an answer.


Dan
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  #3  
Old 04-30-2012, 07:48 AM
ibboone ibboone is offline
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blank guess

I am going to take a shot at rod blanks and wt

1) 7 wt
2) 5 wt
I am going to go with batson blanks?


Dan
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  #4  
Old 04-30-2012, 09:35 AM
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Nice guesses on the blanks, close on the weights but no cigar, and quite a way's off on the manufacturers.

Regarding translating the CCS to line weights - with your 3/4 switch, how did you arrive at your grains for your skagit & scandi heads?

And why did you choose to go with 10% deflection from the grip, rather than the 1/3 x full length deflection?
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  #5  
Old 04-30-2012, 11:39 AM
ralfish ralfish is offline
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CC is arbitrary. If you consider a nice round deflection, the numbers work. Its starts falling apart with 'progressive action' deflections and totally falls apart with 'regressive action' deflections. Something to consider anyways when thinking some blanks don't fit the parameters the system was deigned for. Still allows for comparative analysis when comparing deflections with similar bends but doesn't address what I mentioned or dynamic loading..
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  #6  
Old 04-30-2012, 11:51 AM
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The best "common sense" method of figuring out which lines work on which two handed rods for a given caster is to beg, borrow, or steal some demo lines and spend a little time on the water.

I have yet to see any formula that would dial in the perfect rod line match for every caster, every time, that I could use while sitting in my big chair and eating Mrs. RedShed's cookies. It's to bad as I might have more time to fish but no such formula exists.
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How you get the line out and fishing is personal preference so as long as it works and is easy no one should care but the caster. MSB
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  #7  
Old 04-30-2012, 12:00 PM
max.garth max.garth is offline
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I use a TFO 11 foot switch, 9# or 500/700gns GDE. Actually it casts a SA SinK 7 head 750gns quite well. Not interested in guessing games about fly rods.
MaxG.
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  #8  
Old 04-30-2012, 01:12 PM
DGC DGC is offline
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Common Cents

I have used it for many years. Most european rad tests list the results. Go tohttp://speypages.com/speyclave/showthread.php?t=29111 for an earlier thread. Sushiyumm and i have discussed it at lenght. However, read all the sections on the CCS. You have to determine the rod and line weights. I just bought a 5 wt IM7 rod outfit (5 piece) for my daughter (rod, reel, line, codora case, $50/was $200). I cast it with the provided line. I have built fly rods for 10+ years, teach fly rod building for my TU chapter. Knew in a second (just a wiggle or two, not a 5 wt.) Cast it, tough to load until 45+' out. It tested as a 6.75 wt. The line tested as a 4.3 wt. Just as the rod may not be accurately labeled, so goes the line. Search the site, several years ago, someone in Europe did some tests. I will look again. Deflections in grams X.13 (?) gave head weight.
As said before, it is a starting point. Scandi, skagit, short, med, long bellies all require adjustments. And now we have scandi short, skagit short (compact), etc. Arghh!!!
Don
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  #9  
Old 04-30-2012, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max.garth View Post
I use a TFO 11 foot switch, 9# or 500/700gns GDE. Actually it casts a SA SinK 7 head 750gns quite well. Not interested in guessing games about fly rods.
MaxG.
Then don't guess... I don't have your rod, so I guess I could say I'm not interested in your rod/line combo (geez?!? ), but perhaps that might be inflammatory, so I'll try to appreciate your offering. Perhaps it's useful info to someone reading.

Do you use this rod/line combo as a shooting head, or do you employ water loaded casts? I've been considering trying F/S scandi heads for winter steelhead work on big water, but so far I've done well enough with light poly tips, and am not enthused about the heavy lifting I think might be required to get the head lined up for a cast.
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  #10  
Old 04-30-2012, 08:19 PM
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Mr. Godshall to the rescue

I emailed the good Mr. Godshall with the information from the first post in this thread, and I have a line (410gr SGS Scandi) on the way which he is confident I'll enjoy for rod A.

While I would love to have the luxury of being able to get out to a gathering and try a dozen lines (and I appreciate that this would be the best way), I live nearer to crowd free fishing than to a fly shop which carries spey gear.

I was also interested to learn that the rod B was likely engineered by the manufacturer to single handed specs, and so comes out as a much lighter rod number if considering switch rod weights. Probably line it with a ~350gr skagit, or a ~310gr scandi, or a 9wt singlehander line (~335gr for the full 42ft). Good to know, because before this CCS test, I thought they were rods which could be used for similar sized fish.

Turns out that instead of having two rods for summer steelhead and coho, I have a summer steelhead stick and a lighter trout rod that would be better off chasing pinks and trout up to 24" than coho and fish in the 10lb class.
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  #11  
Old 04-30-2012, 09:13 PM
ibboone ibboone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btree View Post
Nice guesses on the blanks, close on the weights but no cigar, and quite a way's off on the manufacturers.

Regarding translating the CCS to line weights - with your 3/4 switch, how did you arrive at your grains for your skagit & scandi heads?

And why did you choose to go with 10% deflection from the grip, rather than the 1/3 x full length deflection?
Back when I did the deflection test this is the way they told me to do it.

The way I can up with line weighs is by thinking of single hand weighs.

A single hand 5 wt is 270 grains so I cut down a line until I thought it was about 270 (no scale at the time) then since I new a scandi line suppose to be lighter then a skagit I purchase a scandi line from a speypage member that was selling a beulah scandi line. I think it would have felt lighter in hand if it was lighter then 290 but it works and the guy I sold it to loves it.


Dan
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  #12  
Old 04-30-2012, 09:46 PM
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Nice work - it seems that without some daring experimentation, little progress is made.

I've ruined a few lines chopping them up to try to make a square peg fit a round hole. A few successes along the way, but plenty of lines in the garbage.

This time I just got lazy and went to a pro, but thanks for the explanation.
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  #13  
Old 05-02-2012, 02:02 PM
speycaster speycaster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJC View Post
The best "common sense" method of figuring out which lines work on which two handed rods for a given caster is to beg, borrow, or steal some demo lines and spend a little time on the water.
Absolutely. No formula will give you the answer, as long experience has demonstrated. Steve G. knows his stuff, so he'll have a good match for your rod if he's familiar with it.
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  #14  
Old 05-02-2012, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speycaster View Post
Absolutely. No formula will give you the answer, as long experience has demonstrated. Steve G. knows his stuff, so he'll have a good match for your rod if he's familiar with it.
Totally agree - I've come to realize that the best I could have expected was a ballpark figure. And yes, Steve is quite familliar with one of the rods

One is a 6/7 Meiser switch, and the other is a #6 Quickline switch, which should have been labeled about a #4 switch according to Steve.

I like the Quickline switch a lot though - for the blank, the price was right! But the prices on the Meiser blanks are hard to beat as well.
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  #15  
Old 05-04-2012, 11:41 AM
DGC DGC is offline
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Lord Kelvin

"If you cannot measure it, if you cannot express it in numbers,
your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind.
Lord Kelvin

CCS is designed to be a starting point, not an end point. Not arbitrary, but reproducible. Easier to start at a midpoint and modify arpound it than keep guessing or wait for the expert to assist, if he is indeed an expert.
My eight wt SH CCS's at 10.1, cast perfectly a 10 wt. horrible with a 8 wt line. My 5 wt was a 6.6 wt. CCS originally found the same thing.
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