SA XLT Testing, Ready to Pass it On...

[juro]

Well, I spent quite a bit of time with the XLT Bruce was kind enough to send along.

Although you can not consider this an expert report from a Simon, Dana, Tyler, etc - you can consider it a report from a fellow thrasher on the water FWIW ;)

Here's my report: (short version, will do more extensive in an article later)

Line: SA XLT 9/10 marked "Experimental", bright orange coating
Leader: 12 foot 60/20/20 recipe with yarn
Rod: Sage 10150-4 Brown, 10wt 15foot 4-pc Traditional Spey

Casts attemped:
Single Spey, both sides
Double Spey, both sides
Reverse Single, Reverse Double right side only
Snap-T
Snake Roll
Reverse Snake Roll

Although I am far from 'expert' in all of the list above and don't use some very often, I was very pleased to be able to cast the line fairly well with most casts provided I was able to throw enough of a kick into that l-o-n-g taper to load the rod properly into the d-loop's vee and make sure that much line was kept 180 to the forward cast, or vice-versa. That was the key to taming the huge taper, not unlike a double taper but it doesn't go flat after you hit the limit.

One standout characteristic of the extended belly is the way it loves the snake roll, which really makes casting a long line quite easy once you find the right place to "flip the egg" as Simon himself puts it. I haven't been doing the snake roll as long as say Dana or Tyler or Double Spey but I felt like I have with this line. The above comments pertaining to big sharp dee loop apply.

I found it difficult to single spey such a huge, long belly unless I reeled up to shorten it - probably a shortcoming on my casting ability. I was unable to manage the whole taper where I was standing fairly deep to avoid trees, which were a problem with the length of the dee loop needed by such lines. That being said, there was an optimum line amount for single spey casting and I was surprised that when there was enough line speed the fattest part of the belly actually shot thru the guides albeit with some effort and not like running line of course. That probably speaks to the slickness of the coating as well, which is a brilliant orange. I would like to see this line in their green color like the old Steelhead taper lines.

When the whole head was out, most of the casts I attempted were beyond my skills with the 10150-4 wading a bit too deep to avoid the trees. After spending some time trying I am even more impressed with Steve Choate and anyone whom I saw do the whole 9/10 belly in a single spey at the Spring clave.

Except for the snake roll with a very deep kick into the dee loop, many of my casts felt heavy and it was hard for me to keep the line stick from killing my cast. I felt much more comfortable reeling up a little to get back to a favorable length, when nirvana would return. So for my skill level, all that extra line would not do a heck of a lot for me unless I gradually worked up to that or perhaps found another rod that could work it better(?) I've been so happy with the 10150-4 sage that I tend to think in terms of a line for that rod instead of a rod for the line, but I could be wrong.

Shortline casting was definitely do-able with that sweet taper, although after casting the big belly it felt like there was no load on the rod the loop formed easily and it will work for tight quarters when needed.

Best casts with the combo for me: Snake Roll, double-spey(partial belly) reverse as well, single spey (partial belly)

Worst casts with the combo: Snap-T either way, left handed reverse anything (but that's my fault)

That struck me as a bit funny because my usual best cast is the Snap-T when using shorter belly lines. I think the super-long belly makes the sweep more difficult due to the increased surface tension of the amount of line in the water and the line stick kills me.

I think this is a great line for big river applications for a full dry line. I've heard that they will work if cut for tips, but I noticed that the last part of the taper is quite light and would have to see the line in action with a type IV before deciding whether it would suit my Skagit River methods or not. It will be fun finding out though!

I will not venture to compare to other lines until I try them in the same context, but would prefer to just say what was great about them as well as where I had difficulties given the limits of my skills.

In summary, the biggest plus for me was that this line made me feel like a snake roll machine. The biggest minus for me was that the whole belly seemed reserved for casters with a big "S" on their chest - a lot of hard work at that length, which is the not what Spey casting is to me. I'll reel up and get back to that sweet spot somewhere on that big continuous taper like I always did with the DT, but it's nice to know there's more where that came from for that day I shake off this kryptonite shackle. :)

Of course when everyone else tells me how easy it was to cast the whole taper I'll be the goat :rolleyes: :chuckle:

My utmost thanks to Bruce for the opportunity to try this line, and hope I get to try other lines in the future. I believe Sinktip is next in line for trying this line... Duggan please PM me your mailing address and I will get it to you.

IMHO,
Juro

[fredaevans]

Have three of the four XLT's and one thing is 'fore sure' I've found is if your using any of the Sage "traditional" rods you've got to snip off 4 feet of the tip to get the line to work as advertised. With a "Euro" blank leave the thing alone.

However, having said all that, Juro's comments are very much on the mark from what I've found with the lines. "Casting" over the anchor is a MUST with these lines, so timing/paying attention to your stick point (especially if you're a long leader guy) is of max. importance.

Same line on a Traditional vs. a Euro blank will add 10-20 feet easy to your cast. Assuming the extra lenght is necessary.
fae

[JDJones]

I have tried two of these lines. An 8/9 (uncut) on a Sage 9150 which I find very much to my liking using either a 15 ft built up leader and single fly, or a 10ft super extra fast sinking poly leader w/5ft tippet and single fly. Of coarse the sinking poly leader is a little more difficult when I have over 75 ft of line off the reel, But it can be done. With the built up leader, I am good out to 90 to 100 ft of line (which I have marked every 10 ft betweem 50 and 100 ft) off the reel. I tend to favor Single Spey, Snake roll and Snap-T. Ether hand, rather than reverse although other hand (right for me since I am a lefty) is not as powerfull,,yet.

The other line I have is the 7/8 which I have cast on the following rods:[list=1]
Sage 8150-4 This is my rod so I am used to it. However being a slower action than the following two rods, requires adjusting to suit the rod somewhat, but once in the groove, is very much like the 9150 only lighter.
Sage 7141-4 This seems to be a very good match. I could get to like the faster action, at least for the casting. Have not had the chance to actually fish with this rod.
Loomis 14ft 8/9wt GL3 This is also a very good match as far as the casting is concerned. The GL3 is very light and will not tire you out lugging it around all day. Mending line is is different with the shorter faster sticks, but can't really say for better or worse at this point, just different.
[/list=1]

I like these lines. Like Fred has said, if you want to throw tandem rigged, heavily weighted flies, you must cut the tip back some. And I would imagine that doing so would also enhance the performance when using the sinking poly leaders. Even if I have to cut back 25 ft and attach loops for 15 ft sink tips, I will still have 85+ ft of fat, castable line to work with before I have to shoot and strip line.

These lines are different than what a lot of people are used to. If you are used to short belly shooting head type lines, you may have to adjust your style some in order to obtain the full benifits these lines have to offer.

IMHO
JD

[Andy T]

Just bought the XLT 7/8 last week and tried it on my 8150-4. During the odd times when I hit it right this taper just kept on sailing through the air like a perfect drive off the tee. It's indeed quite a sight to behold.

The XLT makes the Mastery Spey feel like a Bass Bug WF taper :hehe: and the XLT has 20'-30' more belly than a TT.

In addition to the casting inconsistencies as a result of my own limited casting ability, I was also having trouble turning over bushy flies or flies larger than a #4 heavy wire. I was using a 15' 60/20/20 home made leader starting with 30# tapering to 10#. It's probably more to do with my skill level though.

Has anyone tried the XLT 8/9 on the 10150-4? I'm itching to pick an XLT up for my 10150-4 and I'm leaning towards a 9/10 based on Juro's review. Couldn't find the 10150-4 on Dr. Yin's XLT line/rod chart at www.flyfishusa.com.

[andre]

Regarding the weight designation for the 10150 or any rod for that matter. These lines create a new question in the buy it if I don't like it put it away to cut and splice in the future. With the price set at $75 USD you want to make sure you get the right line right away.

When my elbow pain stops I want to line a 9141 and 10151 Sage. The chart shows the same line for both? can it be, typo? one caster rated one rod another rated another? I am surprised that the same line is recommended (9/10). I asked at a local shop if they knew the grain weight of the head. Reply was SA was being particularly quite. I guess I'll wait for the "demo" line to make it my way and determine which line is right at that point. Fred regarding your cutting off 4ft of the taper to "adjust" the line to suite traditional rods. Is that based on over loading the rod or being able to turn over the leader. I would doubt 4ft of that fine taper would be noticable in casting.

One other question about the chart at what distance were the designations established. At 75-95 ft the 9/10 might be the correct line with the full belly out the rod might blow up? Does anyone know? juro what was your comforatble length? if you were throwing the entire belly would you stepp down a wt?

[juro]

I would LOVE to repeat the test with the 8/9, maybe then I could put the whole belly out and find the effortless casting complement I seek with the 10150-4. To me the most important thing about Spey casting is to get into an effortless rhythm.

Andre, as far as testing the line: we'll definitely send along the 9/10 to you. I will ask Bruce if it would be too much of an imposition to get a test line in 8/9. In any case the 9/10 will be sent your way by one of the others and you can try it out for your own stroke and rods, particularly your Burkheimer. :)

I cast the Burkie with the XLT once or twice at Sandy, which was what Steve Choate was using. It was well matched and threw the XLT very well. I'll have to ping him on the exact setup.

In any case, I will definitely buy the line when I find the one to match the rods I've already invested in. I hope it's the 8/9.

Has anyone else tried the 9/10 on the 10150-4 beside me? Did you also find it a workout casting the whole belly like I did?

[fisshman26]

No line will cure what a good lesson will. The proto line that you cast is far from what the real 9/10 line will be. As for the length of belly out you are really missing out if you cant lift the whole thing, cuz if you can do this it pulls like a freight train and some interesting distances can be acheived. Regarding trying the 8/9 in place of the 9/10 and lifting the whole thing I really dont think it will help that much but you should buy one and try it anyways!

[NrthFrk16]

It seems to me that most everyone that has thrown the XLT (whether they liked it or not) has agreed that it takes alot of effort to move that much belly and get it do what you want it to...

I thought one of the main ideas behind fishing the Spey/Two-Handed rod was the fact that one can cover water in much more energy efficent (sp?) manner than a single-handed rod...so the question is...why does everyone love this line so much...even those that admit they have trouble castint it???

I threw the 7/8 XLT on the DB Favorite 7/8 and noticed the wonderful turnover...other then that I am not going to report on what I liked/disliked about the line as I am not a proficent enough of a caster to give a useful report.

So what makes this line so wonderful eventhough so many that sing its praises cant make the line singe?? If it is the great turnover of the line...does it really it matter in the end if one must cut back the line back and way back to get it to turnover in so many of our typical steelheading conditions??

And until someone can convince me that the XLT is a much better line then the Accelerator and the average caster can make the line work for them, I will sell the Accelerator...

And for my own fishing, I will stick to the MidSpey's & Triangle Taper belly length lines.

Just playing the Devil's Advocate... :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

[juro]

Fisshman -

I've been fishing quite comfortably with Spey rods for several years now, and putting all modesty aside have landed my share of fish the way I am doing it currently. Yet if you honestly feel there's a lesson I could take to lift that huge belly on my 10150-4 without working harder than I would enjoy I am all ears!

While testing this line, I was casting more than far enough for the steelhead I've caught over the last 24 years, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point was, I was comfortable working short of the whole belly and felt as if casting the whole 9/10 belly with the 10150-4 was more work than I care to invest in a day of fishing.

As far as your suggestion to buy an off-weight line while at the same time saying that it will not help... are you talking me into it or out of it??

I am no expert but I have cast combinations that were amazingly matched. Smooth as silk, effortless. I could cast through an Alaskan midnight sun with some setups and not feel any worse for wear. I was hoping by coming down a little in grain weight, I could find that in this wonderful taper the XLT offers. As I maintained all along, it's a matter of matching things up.

If that proto is not what it is going to be, can you elaborate on what it will be?

Originally posted by fisshman26
No line will cure what a good lesson will. The proto line that you cast is far from what the real 9/10 line will be. As for the length of belly out you are really missing out if you cant lift the whole thing, cuz if you can do this it pulls like a freight train and some interesting distances can be acheived. Regarding trying the 8/9 in place of the 9/10 and lifting the whole thing I really dont think it will help that much but you should buy one and try it anyways!

[fisshman26]

I was just stating the obvious that if your technique is not up to lifting the proto that you had, which has a overlly light tip, that you would not be able to lift the 8/9, and it wasnt a sugesstion about going to the 8/9 but rather that you BUY one:devil:

[andre]

fish,

I could easly throw the entire belly of the line and rod combo that Steve brought to the clave (single spey). The question is the best line for my rods and feel I like? I appreciate the effort that Steve and Way have gone through creating the chart. However can one disagree, if the chart was developed with 250 grains or 25ft ( numbers I pulled from the air) of belly wrapped around the reel. The optimal line might be one line wt lighter?

Or am I completely wrong in my logic?

Just looking for answers to honest question.

It's not a question of buying the lines its which ones?

Ryan, Lift any real long belly line will require some effort. however when the taper is right lifting is much easier. Hey do you have any suggestions for the 9141? I'm thinking the elbow will be good in the next week to two. Re Dennis I'll get the B&W up there in the next couple weeks.

andre

[fredaevans]

but the 7/8 is a great match for the Sage 9140-4, the 8/9 for the 9150-4 rods. The ligher 14 appears to be over-grained by the 8/9, but perfecto stepping down one line size. The longer/stiffer 15 footer booms the 8/9.

A quick segway to Ryan's comment about snipping of a bit of the line. This is just normal 'tweeking' we all go through with a line to get it to match up with our casting style, and the type of terminal gear we use. I'm sure a better caster could leave the 'extra' 4 foot on when 'dry lining' very long leaders and two weighted flys, but not me. The 4' 'snip' shortens up the tip (as Goldielox would say) "just right" for my combination of skill and terminal tackle choice. (Workin' good this morning .... landed three lost a fourth, all in the 7-10# range. Our 'summer fish' so far are running as big as our average winter fish.)
:smokin:

[NrthFrk16]

Andre-
Brian and myself played around with some differnt lines on the rod...

I first started fishing the 9/10/11 WC on the rod and liked it at first because I had no problem chucking 60ft but anything beyond that and the rod seemed overloaded.

Next I decided to try the 8/9 MidSpey based upon the fact that the 9/10/11 WC overloaded the rod...well the 8/9 was too much for the rod...seemed like that it was way too much for the rod.

Next...Brian let me line up the rod with his 8/9 Triangle Taper. WOW!!...a perfect match for the rod.

When I first picked up that rod I was thinking 9140-3 type lines as this was its replacement and a couple people I talked to said the the 9140-3 and the 9141-4 were very very similar...not true.

It seems as though the 9141 and my brownie 9140-4 load in the same manner with the same lines eventhough both are two totally differnt actions.

I am sure Brian could give you a much better and detailed description on how each line reacts to the rod...

And like I said Andre, take your time with the rod as I really dont have any use for it at the moment as my #7/8 Derek Brown Favorite should be here very soon!! :devil:

[inland]

With all of the hype and hoola-ballou I too was eagerly awaiting the line to hit the market. Now that I had the pre-conceived idea that this line was going to be better than sliced bread I hurriedly strung it up and ran out to the local casting ditch.

Purchased the 6/7 after reading that it was 'highly' reccomended for the Sage 6126 and figured it too would work on the Burk 7137.

After about 20 minutes of flogging the water I had had enough. The tip would not turn over, the grains were too heavy for either rod, WAY TOO MUCH WORK. Much easier to strip and shoot a Midspey. Easily get the same distance with a lot less energy applied- more bang for the buck.

A few days later I thought I would at least give the line another go on the Burk 7137. Did much better with it but still felt it weighed too much. Required too much input.

A few more days later...I decided to finally break out the tape measure and find out how long the belly is. Supposed to be 85', it is approx. 92' before the back taper starts. Overall length is 117'. I measured 3 times just to be sure. From this point I put a big old (3" long) black mark at 90', a 1/2" mark at 100' and 110'.

Now armed and ready I strung the line up on my 8139 Burk. Figured that it would not overload this rod. While the line still carries some heft, it did feel much better. From my earlier testing, where I was able to hit one or two casts out of 20, deep down I wanted to believe user error was at fault. If so, how was that critical timing going to be pulled off waist deep with a swirling wind under actual fishing conditions?

I took one more shot at it today. Threw the line on the Burk 7137 and 8139 along with the Sage 6126. For whatever reason it all came together!!! While I have become fairly proficient throwing DT lines at this distance I could not find the timing with the XLT until this afternoon. I found that the line is too light for the 8139 Burk and that it does throw quite magically on the 7137 and Sage 6126.

Once the trick was found on how to get the line started it became the easiest line on the planet to throw. While I could not consistantly handle the 90' mark at the rod tip, it did cast perfectly with the 90' mark at my hands (Also casts very nice as you go shorter too). Hit the cast right and all 117' of line is gone (But that defeats the purpose of throwing that much belly to leave running line in the rod tip). I still can not get over how easy it is to lift that much line, if done correctly the line does not overload the rod and just fires out at any distance with lazer tight loops. I am still shaking my head in dis-belief. GOODBYE to short belly lines forever, especially with this taper design and how well it throws short (I think Fisshman26 brought this point up months ago- dead on by the way) , long, and in the wind. The 7/8 XLT should be on its way Monday morning to round out my requirements!!!

In 10 day's time I have run the full gamut of wanting to sell the line to now being a HUGE, HUGE fan. I think a monster KUDOS is in order for the guys (Way and Steve) who did the leg work and for SA in stepping up to produce such an animal. Can't wait for fall's arrival to air out some line.

[Dana]

Originally posted by inland

Once the trick was found on how to get the line started it became the easiest line on the planet to throw.


Hi Inland!

What was the "trick" you discovered?

[inland]

Dana (et all),

I am not innovative enough to create a new trick, or move, just tried a couple of things to see if they worked.

While I do tinker with the snake roll, spiral spey, and snap T, I pretty much stick to a single and double spey. Only right handed as my left side is pretty much worthless. Out of neccessity I have to reverse these casts when wind conditions dictate.

While throwing the 6/7 XLT on the Burk 8139 I found that if I REALLY backed off the stroke, both back and forward, the line would perform well enough but would not develop energy to shoot line very far. I reasoned applying the same principle to the 7137 could work.

I found that using a very high rod lift, not shotgun style but as in starting a switch cast as written word for word in "Fine and Far Off", I could get enough line off of the water to start the pull without overloading the rod. This was the first step in not over-powering which is the kiss of death with this line.

I could then execute a switch with consistent favorable results or go into a traditional single spey (best results were the same as Fred's- keep your anchor set so the line casts over itself a little). The key was not over powering the back stroke, use as little movement and energy as possible through the lift- let the rod do the work for you. Swing the D loop to 180 from where the cast is going while waiting the split second where the rod loads and GENTLY kiss it out there.

For those that might not already know, there is a simple ratio that sets a guage for difficulty factor. Take the line outside the rod tip and divide by the rod length. The rule of thumb here (The lower the number the easier.) is that any number approaching 5.5 is getting really difficult to consistantly cast. Looking at a windcutter 7/8/9 (54' head) on a 14' rod the loop/rod length ratio is 3.9. Take the same 14' rod and put an accelerator (75' head) on it and the ratio jumps to 5.4. Add in waded to your waist and Ed Ward is very correct is stating 100' casts (and 20# steelhead) are being over-exaggerated. Now apply that ratio to the XLT. The 7137 Burk and 92' of head comes out to 6.8, shorten the head by stripping 12' and it comes out to 5.9 (Much more managable while being able to develop enough inertia to shoot line into another county). Obviously the rod taper, line weight and its taper configuration all affect the validity of this ratio to the caster.

These XLT lines, when balanced to the rod and individual, are going to make anybody a better caster when they find comfortable timing. And for those guys out there who can consistantly throw the heavier XLT's with 110' out of the rod tip (using a 15' rod this ratio is 7.3!!!), they are truly awesome casters on par with anybody in the world- especially if they do this while fishing and not casting practice.

William

[juro]

So... let me get this straight... you're saying the grain weight in the tip is a factor in lifting a line, but not a lighter belly. Funny, I would have thought the grain weight in the tip was about turnover when finishing the cast, not how the rod lifts the whole belly.

As far as the rest of your advice... I hope you're not in sales :devil:

Originally posted by fisshman26
I was just stating the obvious that if your technique is not up to lifting the proto that you had, which has a overlly light tip, that you would not be able to lift the 8/9, and it wasnt a sugesstion about going to the 8/9 but rather that you BUY one:devil:

[fisshman26]

Overall grain weight does make a difference but when you lift you are lifting the belly and not the tip. When I said that the proto has a light tip I ment that it is light in taper, I would say that taper has more to do with turnover than grn wght in the tip. I dont believe that I gave any advice other than BUYING a line rather than BEGGING for one.

[doublespey]

Hey Juro et al,

Have found that the XLT the 8/9wt (with most of the 'head' out :devil: ) worked very well for me on a relatively strong 15' 10wt traditional action spey rod. This rod is probably a bit stronger than the 15' 10wt 4piece Sage, so I think you're right on in wanting to *try* a lighter line. Others have made this observation.

Fis26 - if Juro's guilty of begging, then so are many of the rest of us since he didn't do it to 'Own' the line himself but to Share it with the rest of the Forum Speycasters. Now we'll all have a chance to actually try this wonderful line we've all HEARD so much about for the last few months.

Actually using the line is a much better way of telling whether you want to invest $75 than just hearing other's subjective opinions . . . don't you think??

my .02

DS

[juro]

Thanks Doublespey, now THAT kind of feedback would give even the most frugal angler confidence in buying a line.

Fisshman -

When this resource, made possible by the hard work of some, serves some purpose for others - getting a proto line (however unfinished it may be, to your point) to serve another purpose seems proper and fitting to me.

To let an unlimited number of people make a better buying decision without having to weed thru such rhetoric is a bonus in my book. I'd work to keep the site going for that purpose alone! Glad you enjoy the free site.

Juro

[fredaevans]

Lots of post about this line, whose design I gather, is quite different than most other configurations out there. "Free site," or no, has any other line, or rod, or what-ever, manufacture ever handed over 'examples' of a new product to the general public and said pass it around?

To individuals who have a reputation for testing/reporting yes, but to the general public? Actually, I think this is a darn guttsie move on SA's part. To do this you'd have to have a lot of confidence in the product.
fae

[Rick J]

I'm thinking some folks are missing the point of the XLT. If you can only cast 50' or even 80 ' maybe you do not need this line but the line casts at these distances very well. So if you are only going to have one floating line, this line gives the benefit of being able to cast a very long line for those that can and still have good mending abilities and for those that cannot currently cast that far, it is still a great casting line for shorter distances.

The disadvantges may be that for someone that can't reach those long distances then going to the shorter heads would give more distance after shooting than could be reached with the XLT but then you lose some mending benefits.

I have not had the opportunity to fish one for any length of time but I was very impressed both at the Class I took with Way and Steve and at the Clave with how the XLT cast at all distances and gave me the option of really letting one fly when the opportunity was there

[Ol Rich]

To me the real value of the XLT is how easy it casts. When you ger the right combination of XLT and rod you can cast 20' - 30' further with less effort. The first time I cast the prototype with Steve Choats' 13' Burkheimer, my comment was "this is so easy". Now with my 14' St. Croix it is still so easy to consistantly place the fly where I want it out to 100'. I am looking forward to trying the AirFlow poly tips. My last time out I even got the timing down to cast into an up stream breeze. If the wind gets too heavy I will still break out the 15' and Windcutter.

Rich

[andre]

Fred,

I've used rods from a number of manufacturers. I demoed on trips Sages, Winston (dbf), and Scott. I don't know about reels. However, many manufacturers provided demos to shops. I know of one shop in may area that claims to have a 8/9 demo xlt but they can't find it. Most of this stuff goes to employees.

[fredaevans]

I ment the general public. At least, with a salesman, someones there pushing to make a sale of a product. Don't think a salesman cares what line you buy ... just buy something.:devil:

In marketing part of what SA's doing would be called "Pull-Push" rather than "Push-Pull." 99% of the 'pill advertising' is trying to create a demand (an example of Pull-Push) for a product ... tag line is always "Go ask your Doctor." Just wish they'd leave all the other possible 'side effects' out; cure sounds worse than the problem.:eek: Far more effective in mass advertising where millions see the add and may 'demand' the product.

Doubt there's a million people in the world who've used a spey rod, let alone own one. Niche market, do what you can as 'word of mouth' is still the most productive form of advertising and doesn't cost a cent. Is the formulation of the XLT for 'everybody.' Not a chance. I suspect you have to be a pretty good caster to effectively use this line. But as skill level goes up, so do the favorable characteristics of this line.

This would probably not be my first choice of lines to teach a 'newbie;' (that would be the old fashoned DT)
but after that .... many lines (as good a line as it maybe) frequently have major limitations. That's why they're in a box in the closet.

just my .02
fe

[juro]

Fred, et. al. -

I am sure the folks who have shown an interest will enjoy the opportunity to try the line out after all we've been reading about it. Very much appreciated indeed, but gutsy?

It's nothing new for manufacturers to provide gear to people they can identify as "in the biz", they get to keep it as well. What's new about all this is that we're going to try the line for a short while and then pass it on.

Should the only way to buy a fly line be sight-unseen?

If not, then I see nothing new or unusual about a community of anglers sharing a prototype line.

If so - someone please explain why that must be so.

If you think about it, a company who gets the benefit of many people's feedback for the cost of making a flyline is getting even more than the people who get to try it for a few days and surrender it to the next guy. And there is no better marketing value than free advertising.

Wouldn't it be great if we could get an inventory of various Spey products to try? I think so. That's what the Sandy River clave was all about, but not everyone could pick up and fly to Oregon for a day and a half. I was sure glad I did, but that's beside the point.

One would never buy a rod without casting it, or a reel without feeling it in the hands to see how the drag acts. I would never buy waders without trying them on, nor even boots. Truth be known, I hope that someday the Forum is a place where many people can try products that are made available to them through the value of an angling community to the manufacturers.

This is all good stuff, even the part where I am made out to be a girlie caster and line beggar ;) I appeciate the comments despite appearances and in spite of their delivery. But I warn you - when I lift the whole 9/10 belly with my 7136-4 I will get it on video and ask Dana to post it :devil:

It's not unusual to innovate, whether it's how we test a line or learn about the line design itself.

Expect nothing less from the Forum!

[doublespey]

This is not a flame, but I don't understand how this can be a dangerous move on the part of the line manufacturer to let a few lines out to introduce experienced speycasters to the product and get feedback regarding possible deficiencies.

That's Marketing - Gatorade does it with their new water, giving it away to prospective customers (they hang out around health clubs) by the case load. And that's just the latest I've gotten to try. :devil: If it's really that good, we'll try it and go "Oh La La". The only danger I can see is if the water( or line) isn't "up" to the hype.

No other manufacturer's going to be able to duplicate it in time to undercut their market, and once it's commercially released it will happen anyway if it's sufficiently worthy.

I've been given lines, loaned 1st production spey rods, and in other ways been asked to give feedback on new introductions to the market. And I'm NOBODY - just some speycasting steelhead-fishing bum who's been at it for a while.

Using my own understanding of the flyfishing "business", if I were the wholesaler/manufacturer I'd certainly be giving out samples (or loaning if a highpriced item like spey rods) of my XYZ product to any shop-website-other venue I'd used to spread info (notice that I made no accusations about "marketing") to prospective buyers.

It happens all the time with the shops where these lines are sold, and I think the Forum fits in that category since many casters were "sold" by what they heard from Way and others here.

Again, this was not meant as a flame. I'm just trying to understand people's logic in this.

thanks,

DS

[fredaevans]

What's getting touched on here and then lost in the clutter is the folks who normally get to 'field test' products are indivuals connected with the industry. Whether it be the 'pro shop, which most arn't, a guide whose signed up with a rod company, etc. Not the 'general public.' (Keep in mind here, several folks declined to be 'testers' noting their level of expertise may (and I'll bet they're wrong!!!!) be "inadequate.")

The board may have 1 thousand and some members, but probably only 10%, if that, concentrate on spey fishing. Doubt that 40% of the board even own a spey rod. Some of us (as I'm frequently reminded) have too many (Is that possible??). But back to 'gutsy' for a moment: I'm still looking for another example or two where a manufacturer has handed over new, relatively expensive, products to the 'general public' and said try these. IMHO, test marketing a cola or bottled water isn't quite the same as a $75.00 a pop fly line.

A lot of good reviews sell a product; darn few 'bad reviews' can kill it in it's infancy. Final thought on the board goes back to it's size. As a board, this is a cool place in many respects ... but we don't represent, nor are the posts read by, 1/10,000 of the general fishing population. But can we have a positive/negative impact. You betcha!

Someone sees you working with the equipment. Conversation will evolve to what do you like, etc.; a partial sale, or the killing of a sale just took place. Don't thinks so? If someone told you a product was junk, what's the probability you're going to go out and buy it to prove 'him/her' wrong?

The 'general public' - that means 99.9999% of us - can't call Sage/Scott/Loomis/RIO/SA, etc., up and say "would you send me 'x-y-z' rod/line as I'd like to cast it and see if I like it." I doubt that 1 in 50 on the board could even go into a tackle store and ask them to hand over a rod (or what-ever) for a week end, without paying for it first. You'd have to have one hell of a track record with the retailer to make this one go. Or, assuming they even have a place to take practice casts, the saleman will accompany you. Think I'm kidding? Walk into your local Wal-Mart or call Cabela's, Sage, etc., and give it a try. (If it works I gotta talk to you about how you pulled it off!)

As to the referenence to the Sandy Clave, that was dead on why the three of us put it together. Darn few places (other than big trade shows) where you can actually 'test' competing product lines. And as to the specific access to the test lines, for this, I recall, we have Dana to thank. I, as others, got to 'test' the lines at the Charity Spey clinic, beyond that I paid $74.95 each for the three lines I own.

fae

[Grampa Spey]

Maybe what we are seeing is here is a couple of things.

#1 Mating the correct spey line to the rod to the river to the caster's abilities is a truly mind boggling challenge for those of us who are not professionals, work as guides, in a shop or live on a Spey casting River.

However, if the line makers don't figure out how to do it, they will find this niche market decreasing in size rather than increasing.

Go to any auction site, and it fairly evident that a lot of people bought Spey Rods and then lines and expected to be booming the casts out there. When it didn't happen, the rods, reels and lines either set in the closet or went on the auction block. You see that they were used once or twice. Very expensive failures for the Spey Fishing Industry.

In my simple mind, a new line maker has the obligation to tell which rods match his lines and what level of caster for the lines recommended for that rod. Or an established line company like Rio, if they come out with a new line like to compete with the XLT's. They should have recommendations based on field tests of what lines will work with what rods and for certain levels of casting skills.

Rio with Simon has done a good job. SA now has charts re their XLT lines and roads and fishing situations which may even be better than the Rio charts.

As far as I can see, they are the only two line makers to really address the variables to avoid buying an expensive pig that will not work.

#2. Now maybe SA has taken the next step, and that is actually allow those of us who are non pros to try their recommended line and see if it works with us, our rods and the rivers we fish.

If so kudos to them.

#3. Some real brave companies will start to actually have focus groups with buyers of lines, rods, reels to see how the users like them. What they like, what they don't like and what needs to be improved.

Up to now, we pay good money and mail in our product warranty cards and never hear from a manufacturer about how we like and perceive their products.

Bob Pauli a member of this forum, a friend and a fellow fly club member and I have noted that between the two us with a lot of rods, lines, reels, waders and other expensive gear purchased in the last decade, neither of us has ever heard back from Sage, Loomis, T&T, Gunnison, Orvis, Loop, Lamson, Rio, SA, Teeny, Simms or any other manufacturer that we have sent back a warranty card. (To Jim Teeny's credit, if he is in his office he will talk to you and give you advice on how to use his lines. Bob has had a lot of good discussions with Simon that have helped both of us.)

You can get by with this ignoring your core customers and new customers during an economic boom and when the new rich want to become great fly casters and have zero problem spending a couple of thosand $'s to buy something that looks good in their hands. However, with the economy the past two years, that arrogance of ignoring your customers can kill your company.

Not all of us are professionals nor could we be. Most of us want to buy something that works without having to be beat up by factors we were not told about before our purchases.

Last but not least any major rod company that comes out with new rods should have a chart of what existing lines work for a great caster, a moderate caster and a newbee. As much as I like my Sage rods, if they don't come up with a handy chart on their web site for recommend lines for their new and existing Spey rods. I will never buy another Sage Rod. It is pure Bravo Sierra for a company to sell rods for $700+ and not have recommendations for what lines work with that rod.

Just my 2 cents worth before Gray Davis takes it from me!:)

[juro]

Well said!

We have been programmed into thinking our role is to buy from whatever gets mass-produced and having to live with it - not having what we really need produced for us. All that is missing is a connection between our insight and their manufacturing expertise. Luckily some companies build great stuff :)

Along with the goal of building a great angling community, we should consider it an important goal that the Worldwide Flyfishing Forum brings this kind of consumer focus together for the mutual benefit of both the angling community and the manufacturers.

I hope we can turn our community into a meaningful clearing house for product ideas and products someday. I hope the manufacturing world looks to us for the incredible insight we hold in our hands and minds someday, and hope they can respond to the few ideas that are worth mass production efforts and their cost investment.

.02

[fredaevans]

I saw SG's post and sent him a PM saying RIGHT ON BROTHER'S AND SISTER'S. Came back and saw your post. My post on our "numbers, " not withstanding, focused - as you suggest - we've got clout. Squabbling divides .. and conquers. Probably just where the “manufactures” would like us to be. United voice saying we have a new concept: let the buyers try, converse, and buy has weight behind it.

Even if, like Consumer’s Report, we purchased ‘moderately priced’ items, I suspect many of us would jump at the chance to contribute, and test the toy. As I noted above, if I hadn’t already tried “the lines” no way in hell would I have dropped over $200 bucks. Maybe buy one, but probably not without the intro at the Charity Clinic; and that’s the point of what you’re trying to achieve for the rest of the fellows. But we’ve got to do this with ‘tacked’ not (and no offense intended) a ‘hissie fit.’

Let’s Do It!
FAE

[jimsand]

An interesting thread. As is most of the time, I've learned a little. Want to thank again the folks gave me some advise on a former thread with respect to my 7141. I ended up buying a 7/8 and took it out with high hopes.
I ended up liking the line very much. It did well out to about 70' of line past the tip. That's about a hundred feet hand to fly with the leader I was using. I did pick up very nicely off the water even for an average caster like myself. I couldn't do much with it much past that distance though. I hoping for more so I decided to stick it on my 9wt. 9141. It worked better on the 9 wt. and seemed to match that rod very nicely.
When I got home, I ordered a 6/7 for the 7141. I've taken it up a couple of times now and seems to match that rod very well. I'm having problems putting the end of the belly out past the tip, but I'll work on it. Overall, it's a very nice taper and casts well.
Onne problem that I seem to have with the line that maybe some of you have expierenced. Casting into a wind seems to effect the line moreso than it does my accelerators or midspeys. The SA does seem to be a bit more subtle and not quite as stiff. Still a very good line.
Jims

[sinktip]

Sitting here and chuckling over the extremes this Ford v. Chevy debate has come to. You would think we were talking religion. In a way, I guess we are as many of us take our fishing and our spey rods very very seriously. Even so, it is only a line and no matter how good it is or how revolutionary, or not revolutionary, the tapers, it will not make good casters great or poor casters good. I personally have a bit of the problem on everyone focusing on how far they can now cast. To my way of thinking, that focus does not equate to good fishing in most instances but I digress.

First off, all the numbers thrown around on percentage of the fishing public, who owns how many rods, etc. might well be accurate. What I do know is that spey casting is a small niche market. As one of the Sage staff once told me, they sell 100 XP 5 weights for every one Spey rod. The same goes for lines. Given this, there is nothing unusual about what SA did. This is no different then a rod manufacturer loaning demo rods out.

This spring, I asked a local shop for a 1509 Scott ARC to demo for a week. Three days later I had Way Yin’s own rod. I had heard so many good things about this rod that I was seriously thinking about dropping the bucks for one. Thanks Way! Long story short, I hated the rod. (And yes I know, I am probably the only person out there to feel this way so I can feel the flames coming.) My point in telling this is without the test drive I might have blown $750 to find out this rod did not fit my style. The 10150 Scott did however once I underlined it a bit and Scott got their sale. Good marketing!

The SA line is no different. By putting it out there, SA is allowing people to see if it fits their abilities and style. If it does, great they have made a sale. If not, they have the mastery spey and spey tri-tip that will. Plus they get the benefit of lots and lots of free press. If there are only 10,000 spey fishers out there, I would venture 50% or 5000 are aware of the forum and Dana’s spey clave. You can’t buy that kind of market exposure.

Oh well, let the great debate continue. I will be looking forward to my chance to demo the line and see if I need to budget an extra $75.

[Rick J]

Gotta agree with Sinktips first comment about casting distance. This holds just as much with single handed rods. Seems everyone wants a 4 wt that can throw a whole line - my question is why.

As I mentioned in my previous post, just because someone cannot throw the entire head does not mean that he is not getting the benefit of the XLT. As one post indicated, it makes casting the same distance easier that with some other lines.

I think this is a good line not only for "experts" but even for beginners as it casts well at many lengths. The one comment by a previous poster about the line not turing over very well in a strong wind may have some validity as the long front taper would likely be more affected by wind than a blunt short tip section.

[andre]

Some are concerned with distance because they enjoy casting great distance. I think some like Steve and Dana enjoy casting as much as fishing. I like distance because in certain cases I need to cast 100+ft to get the presentation I need to fish the pocket the way I want. Having the ability to cast long distance can be a great benefit in accurately casting short distance. However, I will agree that usually people attempt to cast farther than they can fish well.

An additional feature of these types of lines are their ability to mend and this is one of if not their greatest attribute.

Jim, thanks for the insite on the 9141 the chart claims the 9/10 is the correct line.

Ah, what a thread, bring back the jet boats:devil:

[Grampa Spey]

I tried to respond to both of you last night, and the server was dropping replies. I tried to send Fred a private response and his mail box was full.

So this will be short (for me).

I commend SA for providing free lines for us to test if that is for real.

I will not buy any new Spey lines until I can try them on my 7141 or 10151 in actual fishing situations, with real leaders and real flies in the waters that I fish.

Another area where the rod manufacturers could help us is to have on their web site (if they have one), the reel's and sizes that balance their rods. Reels are even more expensive than lines. An unbalanced rod is like trying to fish with a rod made in hell.

Also, as Juro suggested, we can provide some of this data. With my new 10151, it is well balanced with the Loop 4. The Loop 4 took 300 yards of 30# Tuf-Line Plus backing. Then, the Rio Accelerator with tips, goes on perfectly with the 300 yards of 30# Tuf-Line backing.

However, it would have been nice if Sage had cared enough about its customers to have this data on a web page and on a small water proof card in the rod's case. Of course along with the recommend lines for various fisher skills for each rod.

I own 6 Sage rods, 3 one handed rods and 3 Spey rods. I'm very tired of the mystery of trying to find the right lines for all these Sage rods. Sage is not by itself re the great mystery of life re what line works on a rod. I finally sold a Loomis 7 weight because I could never find the line that worked. The guy who bought it had been warned by me re the line quandry. I gave him four lines. His nine weight lines worked great. That to me is unexcuseable Bravo Sierra. He sold those 4 seven weight lines at $5 each at a garage sale. I will never buy another Loomis fly rod. Yet Loomis's spinning rods tell you what size lines work with what size lures right on their rods. Why can't they do that with their fly rods? They can, but they won't until their hand is forced by the Spey/fly casters.

I am excited that Spey Talk/Clave can make our lives easier re our options, and I have learned a tremendous amount from the great people here. I thank all who have helped me.

[Dana]

I think in general tackle companies are reluctant to create lists or "recommendations" like we see at RIO because it might appear that they are indeed recommending another company's product, and that might get them into trouble with a third company, or cause other problems for them. For example, let's say Sage lists "all" Spey lines that work for the 9141. They list RIO lines, Airflo lines, SA lines. That probably works ok because none of those line companies market spey rods. Now, is Sage going to list an Orvis line? Probably not, as it directs consumer attention toward one of their main competitors in the rod market. Is Orvis going to recommend a RIO line? Nope, 'cause that would make a dent in their line market. This doesn't work out really well for consumers, but it allows the companies to protect their market.

All of this is one of the main reasons I originally created the Spey Pages and do rod/reel/line reviews. My intention was never to indicate that a particular rod or reel or line was better than others (so maybe "review" is the wrong word to use) but to give others the benefit of all the experience I've gained casting and fishing a variety of rods, reels, lines etc. I wanted to be able to say "this line works well on this rod with this reel for intermediate casters" or "this would be a great expert's combination, but new casters will struggle with it", of course keeping in mind the whole time that I am just one person with one opinion. But when I started out back in the early/mid 90s no one could provide me with anything like this and I hoped that I could make things a little easier for others who are new to the sport or who haven't had an opportunity to cast a wide range of tackle systems. When the old ISC board got started, we had many people come on with their own experiences with various pieces of tackle, and this really added to the richness of information available to readers. That’s what this forum is really all about: people exchanging information and ideas.

I’ve been following this thread since Juro started it, hoping that we might finally have a balanced thread emerge on the XLT, and I think we’ve done it (with a few bumps along the way). Now that many people have actually cast the line for themselves under their unique fishing conditions we can now get an idea of how it really performs. It sounds like many of the claims made by the group of test anglers and the line designers are relatively accurate: the XLT allows you to pick up and cast a long belly line, to shoot line into the cast if you want for max distance, and to have good mending control at distance. It is easier to cast than a standard DT at distance, and feels lighter off the rod tip and easier to cast than some other long belly Spey lines. Yet it also sounds like the tip turnover problem identified by Whistler, RLN and others last fall remains, especially if one uses longer leaders and heavier flies. It is also a big heavy line that takes up a ton of space (mixed metaphor--sorry!) on a reel, and no matter how skilled you are, over a long day of fishing, particularly on big water, that’s a lot of grains to toss around cast-after-cast. It also sounds like the line is very much a “work in progress”—the achievement of the XLT design is its synthesis of various taper concepts into a production line that allows those who favor long belly lines to get the most out of their chosen tackle system. No doubt Way is still thinking through various refinements and the next generation of these lines will be even better.

I echo JD’s comment: I like these lines. And I also like the fact that the Spey Clave and ISC before it is the place that interested anglers have been able to follow its development and some of the excitement and controversy that has surrounded it. Thanks to everyone for your on-going participation and support of the Clave, Spey Pages, and the Forum! We have a lot of fun in here (despite the occasional black eye!), and that's what it's all about!

[Grampa Spey]

Thanks for your reply and thanks for this great site. I will be buying your news letter to help support it.

I understand what you are saying about the manufacturers of the rods, however, it is interesting that some of the smaller boutique Spey Rod makers are doing exactly what I have suggested. I'm sure that the sharks of the larger corporations, their lawyers are in this picture too. Telling the big companiews not to say nor recommend anything. Make it one of the mysteries of life of how to balance that $700 rod with a reel and lines.

A fellow at our fly club who is a mechanic heard me complaining and explaining the problem of matching the lines and reels to a major rod company's specific rod. He said that if Ford or GMC didn't tell you what type of brake fluid and power steering fluid to use in their same models, they would get sued. He has a Spey Rod and is about to chuck the entire concept. As a mechanic, he is a very literal guy. He wants something that says if you buy x rod and cast at a moderate level, then these lines will work. Last but not least what reels will balance that rod. He has a ton of money invested in a name brand rod, name brand reels and name brand lines and none of them work for him. He does not have the patience to come on line to search out this stuff.

Thanks for your time on this issue and for your great board! Do you have the link of how to subscribe to your News Letter, handy?

[Dana]

to blacksalmon@hotmail.com for the particulars!

thanks for the support!

[fisshman26]

Actually using the line is a much better way of telling whether you want to invest $75 than just hearing other's subjective opinions . . . don't you think??

my .02

DS [/B][/QUOTE]
I think DS is right try the line for yourself, this can be done by calling The Fly Shop in Welches as they have lines to try, and are a board sponser! Instead of listening, to say for example, Juros review.
As for the problem of turnover I guess when they measured 150ft over in the uk the were measuring to a clump of line, leader (20ft.), and yarn fly:devil:

[Dana]

Where they using factory XLTs at the contest, modified XLTs, or custom lines of their own making? It would certainly be interesting to hear more about the tackle used at this event!

[fredaevans]

factory with an extra shot (about 50 foot) of running line behind the stock line. As the lines run from 120 feet to (I think) 150 feet from top to bottom there was extra running line spliced (I assume) to encrease the length. If you're going to put out 150 foot, gotta be a bit extra. Suspect that all that line laying around your feet (they use a casting platform) would get a bit crazy. Can we spell 'tangles?"
fae

[Dana]

my XLTs (the 8/9 & 9/10) are 130ft long (give or take a foot or two)--I'm guessing they were using the 10/11 on their rods?

I saw Steve cast 2 years ago up here. He threw an entire Spey-Driver to the backing with relative ease and it was immediately evident that he was a tremendous, one-of-a-kind talent. It is great to see him out competing and setting new standards in the Spey's homeland!

And not to take anything away from Steve here, but Way is no slouch, either. 46 yards, and with a rod a full foot and a half shorter than Steve's Daiwa. This also stands alone as an awesome achievement!

Is there any info on Ian Gordon? What tackle was he using?

Again, congrats all around! Where can I sign up for your next course?

[juro]

To fisshman's point -

Trying it yourself is best - and for those who don't have the benefit of living within driving distance of Mark's shop in Welches just reply to this post if you're interested and one of your fellow Forum members will forward it to you after they try it out. (At this time, we only have the proto 9/10). S/A mentioned making the other weights available, will follow up. Of course getting over to Welches is your best choice if you can manage, but making it available to those who can't is precisely what this is all about.

BTW - Post your honest opinions of the line after testing it for yourself even if some folks seem to have a problem if it doesn't reflect their own opinions. ;)

[fredaevans]

using his own Carron rod and line. Both Steve and Way liked the set up very much. Forgot to add: Both Steve and Way were using factory, not a prototype, 10/11 XLT with 50 feet extra of 0.029” SA shooting line.

fe

For fishman26: Given where you list your 'home waters,' doubt you can pop by Mark's place in Wlelch's Or. I've got the 78/, 8/9 and 9/10 lines. Shoot me an off line e mail and let me know which one you'd like to try.
fe

[Willie Gunn]

Dana,
Ian Gordon is a full time ghillie on the River Spey at Knockando, middle spey between Grantown and Aberlour. I believe that his Carron rod has origins in Bruce & Walker but I have no inside information.

Malcolm

[fredaevans]

Knockando, Grants and Aberlour are three very good whiskeys.
:D

[Willie Gunn]

Fred,
Loose the E, that is funny Irish stuff the real Scottish Whisky has no E before the Y.

Other than that you are perfectly right below Aberlour is the legendry Macallan which even boasts it's own beat.

Have a nice holiday.

Malcolm

[Dana]

how might I get hold of him?

[JDJones]

Where else are you going to find someone who has three of these lines at $75 a pop and calmly says “Shoot me an off line e mail and let me know which one you'd like to try” And were it not for Fred, I would not have had the opportunity to learn from the masters Steve and Way on such a nice river as the Rogue. There are no rivers in So. Calif. Thanks Fred. And I will be there for next years Charity Spey Clinic.

O.K. my $.02 worth on the XLT lines.

Like many, I started out with the short belly type lines because I was told they were easier to learn on. They are. They are also tolerant of technique that when applied to casting a long line, simply will not work. As inland and others have discovered, you must lift as much line as possible off the water before starting the cast. You must also keep all that line up off the water as you form the D loop. Placement of the anchor is also critical in order to obtain maximum efficiency. But once these techniques are understood and mastered, tha XLT lines are a joy to cast. And they mend exceptionally well.

There are trade offs, too be sure. Due to the extra long taper, they are more prone to the effects of the wind than a short blunt taper. For the same reason, there are difficulties encountered in turning over large heavy fies. Perhaps this can be remedied by greater line speed. Again, technique. Some will put forth the extra effort, some will not.

It wasn’t too many years ago that none of these lines (or rods) were available. Someone saw a need and developed a product. And thanks to them, we no longer have to re-envent the wheel. The web and forums such as this have made possible the sharing of knowedge and the formation of friendships never before possible. Yes it would be nice if we could just call our local fly shop and say we would like to play with and compare the following rods, lines, reels (make up your own list) for a week on the river before buying. Until then there is the Sandy Clave.

If you look at the different Spey lines available today, and I mean really look at them, their belly lengths, grain weights, size designations, etc. you begin to see the difficulty in defining a rod as being a 9 wt, or a 10 wt. Factor this in with the rod designers personal preference as to whether or not the rod is loaded properly with this or that weight line, it’s a wonder we are anyway near where we are today. BTW Bruce Richards of SA, Simon Gawsworth of Rio, et al Sage Scott, Winton T&T, all of these guys will talk to you. They really care about their product and your opinion of it.

Is the glass half empty, or half full? I think it is way past half full. Get out on the river. Go fish.

><///('> JD

[Willie Gunn]

Dana,
Ian's telephone number is 44 340 810343. I assume this is his house number, remember we are a few hours ahead time wise. I have not got a email etc.

Malcolm

[Nooksack Mac]

To the pantheon of medical men and women who have relieved human suffering and advanced human progress, let us add Dr. Way Yin to names like Louis Pasteur and Jonas Salk. (Perhaps Steve Choate too; I'm not sure). I tried my new XLT spey line today, and I have seen the light.
I went to the Skagit today, needing a river with elbow room. Unfavorable conditions: this left-hander was fishing river right, and a stiff upstream wind tried to blow the line to Marblemount. Nevertheless, any half-correct attempt sent the line soaring, with a remarkable ability to turn over the forward end and its 15-foot leader. The 8/9 line seemed a perfect match for my 13-1/2' Diamondback and my 15' Sage 9150-4 (both rated for 9's and better fitted with 10's). The line worked well enough on a 15' Angler's Workshop 10/11, but lacked the weight to fully load it.
After my longest cast with the Sage, I tied a temporary knot in the line and measured it at home: 91 feet from the tip . Yikes! I can't wait to put it through its paces on a calm day!
The line is 129 feet long (advertised as 130').
Tip: .041"
4' (where Fred Evans suggests cutting it in order to turn over his two-fly setup): .045"
26' (where fissman26 suggests cutting and looping it for sink-tips): .058"
30': .0595"
35': .062"
50': .077"
60': .0776"
75': .080"
89.5" (end of front taper/belly): .080"
The rear taper is 19.5 feet, down to 20 feet of .042" running line.
Note the maximum diameter of .080". For comparison with two Orvis lines: the DT11F has a belly of .078" and the DT12F has a belly of .087".
I haven't yet weighed this line's forward taper/belly. It seems that we're now off the map in terms of normal parameters for classifying spey lines. It occurrs to me that one could use this line on a lighter rod, like my Diamondback 12-1/2-foot 7/8-weight, for fishing normal summer-river distances with no problem, and only the heavier reel to hint at the additional weight and power ready to come off the bench when called. I'll have to try it.
In the meantime, I suggest to the editors of "Fly Rod & Reel" magazine that they consider naming Way Yin as their next "Angler of the Year" (which would remove some of the acrid taste of this year's incendiary choice of Ted Turner).
And I'd love to read a report by Spey Bubba on the XLT's development. How many fly lines did he cut up in his experiments? How many splices? Did the learning curve make the process easier as he progressed from one weight class to the next? Were some weights harder to perfect than others? :confused: Details! Give us details!

[Dana]

I wanted to correct an earlier post of mine on the XLT lengths. Somewhere back there I reported that both the 8/9 and 9/10 that I have were @130 ft line length; actually, the 9/10 is 140ft.

[Nate Bailey]

I agree the xlt is the best line I have casted yet for me, I , even in my singlehander days have prefered DT's because of the mendability(is that a word). Until now I have been a bit disappointed in the fishability of spey lines that were on the market before the sa hit. today (with freds line) I was fishing seams that I never could before....Nate

[fredaevans]

When my elbow pain stops I want to line a 9141 and 10151 Sage. The chart shows the same line for both? can it be, typo? one caster rated one rod another rated another? I am surprised that the same line is recommended (9/10). I asked at a local shop if they knew the grain weight of the head. Reply was SA was being particularly quite. I guess I'll wait for the "demo" line to make it my way and determine which line is right at that point. Fred regarding your cutting off 4ft of the taper to "adjust" the line to suite traditional rods. Is that based on over loading the rod or being able to turn over the leader. I would doubt 4ft of that fine taper would be noticable in casting.

Down "here" a lot of us use two/three fly set ups; usually very small, but well weighted flys. 'Our fish' hold on the bottom so you're either with them or forget it.

Cucking lead feathers has been/was a problem with the XLT until I wacked off some of the tip to get a better power transfer from the line to very long leader/weighted flys.

With a single fly, snipping the line is not necessary; with a two/three fly set up you'll find that the leader (13-17 foot) will lay out horizontal to the water, rather than over the tip. Strange to watch to put it mildly. Cutting back the tip to a 'wider' line seems to 'fix' the situation.
fe

[Grampa Spey]

Fred, you posted:

"When my elbow pain stops I want to line a 9141 and 10151 Sage."

Lets us know what XLT works with both rods. I'm really interested in the 10151 and how it works.

Also, has anyone tried the XLT with waking flies. If so how did it work, and describe your leader length and rigging techiques.

The Yuba River is supposed to be an excellent river to "wake" trout and steelhead flies.

Mark has an excellent section in his news letter this week on waking flies and has some nice flies to buy.

[Grampa Spey]

Fred, how do you land a fish with more than one fly and not hook your self, your waders or the net if a net was used.

Last year during my virginal Spey rod season, I hooked a nice trout on the Yuba about 4-5 pounds and a very large one on Putah Creek. I was using my favorite two fly combo and hooked both fish on the bottom fly.

With the fish thrashing around and me with the Spey Rod looking like Wiley Coyote, I got back to the edge of the shore. Then I did the very funny to watch drop down to my knees and grab the leader. At that point both fish reacted like fish do. I ended up with the top fly in my left hand as I was grabbing or after grabbing the fish. After the second painful event, I stopped using the bottom fly. Of course that really cuts into the productivity.

A friend recommended a kevlar glove for my left hand.

So what is your secret or do you like the pain that often comes with two flies?

[fredaevans]

A two/three fly set up does "complicate" the release. Small fish I'll just use a pair of forcepts on my vest. Larger fish I'll use a set of long nosed needle nose plyers. Better grip on the fly, and far greater leverage in twisting out the hook. Also usually go 'barbless' which helps alot ... even if you do have more "long range releases.":razz:

If there's some else on the beach I'll hand them the rod and just deal with the fish. No one on the beach and it can get to something approaching a Marx's Brothers Production. If out of hand, I'll just cut the leader above the fish and turn him, and the fly loose.
fe

Not personally used the xlt with waking flys but I suspect a high floating braded leader would be a very good idea. These things float like a cork if treated with floatant material, same as the Bomber, etc. With floaters, the last thing you want to use is a floro-carbon leader. One of their best properties is they sink very well .. which is exactly what you don't want.

On line choices, to date I've found that if you're using a 'traditional' softer blank, under line the rod. Example: my 9140-4 matches up beatifuly with the 7/8 xlt. When tossing very long casts the 9/8just has too many grains outside the rod tip. With my Loomis 8/9 (very fast action rod) the 8/9 line is a cannon. (Exception to this, for me, is the 8/9 on the 15' sage green. Very stiff rod so it handles the grains very well).

Never had the opportunity to use any of the Sage Euro's so can't comment on line match ups.

fae

Once I get to 10 wt rods, the 9/10 line seems to work well regardless of the rod being a 'traditional' or 'euro' type blank.

[JDJones]

I had my 8150 set up with a 7/8 XLT line and a bomber fly. Don't remember whether I was using a poly leader or one the I had tied up which would have been 15 ft Maxima Camelion going from 40 down to 12 lb. The poly leaders that I use are the 10 ft salt water variety, to which I add about 5 ft of 12 to 15 lb tippet.
At any rate, it worked. no problem with the cast or the mend.

Fred,
Sage 10151? Did you get another new rod since I was last up there? :hehe: I thought your big Sage was a 10150 (brown).

JD

[inland]

After today's little casting session I have to gush enthusiastically once more about these spey lines.

Using a 13' hollow fluted cane rod (weighs less than the DB Favourite's) and the 7/8 XLT I was once again amazed at the line's performance. Or should I say the rod's performance. I have tried at least a dozen different lines, now the search is over as the XLT really made the rod come alive.

I guess when it is all said and done, this line is really just a 90+ foot shooting head.... :devil:

William

[Dana]

a number of years ago when I was chatting about long belly lines with Derek Brown I was rattling on about how much better long belly lines were than shooting heads. After a while Derek smiled and asked me if my long belly lines had running line behind them (at the time I was switching back and forth between a Scientific Angler's Mastery Spey and a RIO Accelerator). I admitted they did and he correctly pointed out to me that no matter the head length, if I was relying on shooting thin diameter running line to get additional distance I was in fact casting a shooting head.

So your last comment made me grin, inland! Despite the rhetoric, at the end of the day most of us (save those who fish DTs) are casting shooting heads.

Now, if you'll excuse me I have to go and put some new loops in my 96ft shooting head...

[Nooksack Mac]

This evening I followed through on my notion to test my 8/9 XLT on my 12-1/2-foot Diamondback, which is rated for 7/8 lines.
The big drift that starts a hundred yards below Deer Creek is probably the biggest fish-holding water on the North Stilly. Best known as the Manure Spreader Drift, for some long-ago agricultural activity in the high pasture on the south side, it deserves a more elegant name. Considering the all-stars of steelhead fly fishing who owned property along there, I think of it as the
Tribal Elder Drift. It's deep enough to keep one near the stony beach on the north side, and takes a long cast to reach the tree-shaded south side. I worked down the run with a riffling dry fly.
The rod easily cast the necessary 70 feet of line plus a 12' leader, and could occasionally handle 75 feet. That amount didn't seem to strain the rod; it's just that there's only so much non-shooting line a short rod can lift and recast - at least, in my hands. The Cortland Magnum 200 was considerably heavier than its usual reel, but the outfit was still light and well-balanced. The rod handled this line because the line outside the guides was lighter than a normal "8/9-weight" standard.
I'd be interested to hear of someone using a heavier XLT on one of the 6- or 7-weight spey rods.

[Nooksack Mac]

Someone is advertising a new 8/9-weight XLT on eBay; currently at $39.

[Smolt]

Where and who?

[Nooksack Mac]

Go to eBay, then Browse or Shop. Type in something like "spey fly line" or "Scientific Anglers fly line" in Advanced Search. You'll find it quickly enough.

[sleepy weasel]

I think most people are using the XLT with faster rods, but has anyone tried one on any of the Lamiglas Spey rods? I am wondering wether to try the 8/9 or go down to the 7/8 for the lamiglas 13'6" 8/9#.

[speyrd]

Tried a 8/9 XLT on a 13-6 8/9 Lamiglass at the Sandy Clave and a longer than normal fishing distances thought the line was a little heavy for the rod. No one had a 7/8 to try. Have used a 6/7 mid spey on the rod and like it.

Leroy.................