Water Master raft?

[andrew-t]

I am thinking of purchasing one of these and was wondering if anyone had any experience with these.

[sean]

Three of my friends own the ones made by abel (same guy prettymakes them for abel. He used to be with tote-n-flote and watermaster).

In a nutshell they rock for lake fishing and handle up to type IV water. They are very light and easy to pack and can hold a ton of gear.

They cover a wide array of fishing situations. What are you planning on using it for?

-sean

[Moonlight]

My wife bought one from LL Bean when they first came out to bad as it was built a little too light with the older style material it started falling apart on the first trip. Good news they of course refunded her money.
The fledgling company that was making them tryed again with better materials and slightly tougher hand holds etc. Kudos a real winner I have had one for 6 or 7 years as have most of my fishing junkie buddies we all like them very much and use them in both still and white water.
If I may be so bold as to suggest you purchase the light weight one with inflatable seat our expierence shows this to be a very good all round boat portable in the extreme unless you call a 25# pack weight heavy.

[Driftwood]

I purchased my Watermaster raft around 10 years ago (when Dave Inks was involved with the company) and it's still going strong. I've had to patch some holes and replace the original oars (the newer ones are "Carlisle-type" oars that are much sturdier than the originals.

The only "problem" I've had (remember, this is an older model) is that the carrying bag/backpack was a little undersized IMHO and that it took a skilled "folder" to get the thing in the bag. So, these days, I just toss it in the back of the car and go on my merry way.

I'll typically break down my Spey Rod when I"m drifting...there might be more elegant ways of doing this but I'm just a little too lazy to investigate.

Good luck to you!

[Steelheader69]

LOL. They're great little boats. I'd have to say, if I was debating on a pontoon grade boat or a watermaster, I'd swing towards the watermaster. I've seen quite a few of them. Never floated one per-se, but not much different then the bucket boats I used to whitewater in the late 70's/early 80's.

But I digress. I haven't seen a good way to break down a spey rod for a watermaster (let alone anything under 16'). I saw a guy last year drop his spey rod off his watermaster (luckily he got it before it went to far). Also saw one guy snip the tip (about a foot) off his spey drifting a slot on the Upper Hoh.

But for packability, they're the best way to go in any of these "one man" boats. I prefer to fish standing up from my boats so go a bit bigger. I'd also HIGHLY suggest not running anything above a class II in one. I know first hand you don't want to have any body parts in the water hitting any solid class III+ rapids. I do believe your feet dangle in the water in the watermaster. I know what it's like to post a boat on a rock and obsorbing the shock through the frame. Let alone having your body actually take the shock first hand. OUCH!!!!!!!!!!

[andrew-t]

Would you prefer a cataraft over the Water Master for winter flows?

I am thinking about getting the Kodiak which is bigger and has better oars and also has a cushioned folding seat similar to a cataraft/pontoon. The Kodiak is about $1,300 similar to the Steelheader cataraft by Skookum. Would it better to purchase a cataraft that is rated for rivers than the Kodiak? There are a few river rated catarafts the are around $700 - $1,000.

I do not plan on using the boat for hike ins, just day trips and maybe 2 or 3 day float trips on smaller rivers.

Spending big bucks on something like this you need to get as much info form folks who have experience.

Thanks for you help.

[Steelheader69]

I'm pretty honest on these things. Don't try to sell you something you don't need.

You know, it really depends on what you want to do with this boat. Do you plan to actually stand up and fish? Depending on the river, high flows are still no big deal (I STRESS depending on the river). If you only plan to float and fish from shore, get the watermaster. You won't need the super expensive one. Just a vehicle from point A to B. But if you want to anchor up, or get up and fish while you're floating a stretch. Then get the Steelheader by Skookum. I've spent many days, especially during the summer, floating stretches of water. I usually free drift and stand up and cast to slots coming up. Plus, if you have a fish on it's easier to play around the boat then being stuck in the seat. You can quickly drop anchor and play out the fish to the boat.

So, if you want what I described above fishingwise, get a Steelheader. But, if you only plan to navigate to next spot, then go with the watermaster. You don't need anything hardcore on most of these rivers, unless you plan to fish really high water (which is normally a conventional fishermen's domain anyways). Plus, most decent fly water is within the realms of most class II's, maybe the occasional class III. I like to hit the UPPER stretches of rivers, normally class III/IV isn't unheard of up in the headwaters. Good luck, just make sure you decide exactly what you want out of a boat before you buy. Easier to by the right one the first time, then have to sell and rebuy. Get's costly that way.

[sleepy weasel]

Interested in this boat.
If I got a motor mount for the back will it be able to handle being pushed by a 2.5 or 5 horsepower outboard? If not the nine foot model than how about the 12 foot one?

I would like to use it for salwater fishing as well as drifting and running up rivers.
Thanks to anyone that has any information on this.

[Steelheader69]

Even a 2 hp would make that baby fly. But for saltwater fishing, you may want the sureness of a gas motor. But, you gotta realize, I used a 40 lb thrust electric kicker and it really pushed my sled around well at 1/2 power. I do believe Bill at Skookum does make a motor mount. But one thing you have to realize. You put a motor on it, you'll have to license it. Just something to consider.

Oh yeah, any of you looking for a watermaster. There's a guy on flyfish.com selling one of the originals pretty cheap. $350 I do believe.

[Steelheader69]

It's a tote and float

05/13/02- For Sale: Looking at Watermaster? Abel Travel Craft? Save a $1,000 and buy my Tote N Float! Tote N Float was the original; the Watermaster guys cut their teeth at the Tote N Float factory! Hypalon raft, pump, bag (to store the raft) with backpack straps, take down oars, mesh stripping net, etc. Excellent condition! I live in the Seattle area. Really, save $1,000 over the other rafts and buy my raft for $350!
rderedfield@msn.com <rderedfield@msn.com>

Hope this helps anyone out there.

[sleepy weasel]

on the steelheader. I am going to get some more info off Skookum.
Right now I am considering going from a trailered boat to something that will fit inside of or on top of the pick-up and this looks like it could be it.

[elkmcc]

I realize this is an old topic and with all due respect to the previous posters to this thread I did notice a few statements made regarding the Water Master that were misleading or incorrect that I would like to respond to. The Tote & Float was the predecessor to the Water Master but unlike the WM which is entirely manufactured in Missoula, was manufactured in Korea in the 80's. Water Master owns the rights to the T&F but no longer manufactures it. Second, the Abel "Travel Craft" is an unauthorized take off from the original Water Master. The original WM was made for a short period of time in New Zealand in the early 90's until WM opened its factory in Missoula. The abel craft is the NZ WM with an inflatable seat/deck that was utilized to break the patent that WM has on its genuine Water Master. The Abel craft is in no way associated with Water Master Rafts, LLC. Some of Steelheader69s' comments regarding the WM vs the pontoon boat although courteous and respectful are misguided. The WM with its closed bow design is a much more effective and stable craft to fish from than a pontoon style craft. We find that most pontoon kickboat owners use there craft in moving waters to get from point A to point B but rarely actually fish from thier crafts. Also if you compare apples to apples, the WM has a much greater weight capacity than the same sized pontoon craft. Finally, I think that for this class of craft, if it lacks true portability and is difficult and time consuming to put up and take down it lacks the real necessary ingredient that a kickboat should offer. Currently Water Master Rafts is rapidly gaining respect as well as market share and are selling the majority of their crafts to fishermen who have owned the pontoon style kickboats and have discovered the advantages of the WM.

[Doug Duncan]

I am also looking for a pontoon boat or some type of craft so that I can cover more water and spey fish. Does the casting platform really work and how stable is it? Has anyone used their spey rod on the casting platform. I'm not sure if I want this feature or just use the pontoon to get to the next section to fish. Any idea how much these pontoons boats run?

[NrthFrk16]

Sir-
I see that your homepage takes you directly to Water Master's website...are you in any way affiliated with Water Master?

Because if you are, you should let the readers of this Forum know so that they do know your opinion is very very biased!

Just my 2 cents!

[elkmcc]

Sparkey:

Yes, I am the General Manager of WMR although, what I listed are facts and the opinons of our Water Master customers. I apologize if this wasn't clear in my post (we). We, like our customers believe in the WM, we manufacture the WM but most importantly we use our Water Masters.

[Dave Drennan]

... the Abel/Water Master style boats require you wear fins. I just use my boats, I own one of each, to get to point A to B. As for taking down the rod, I leave mine up and rigged with the rod tip out past the bow of the boat. I back into the beach/shore on the runs I want to fish.

Sleepy Weasel - If you're looking for a boat for the salt that you fold up and put away, look at Avon/Zodac style boats. They can be car topped/folded and stored in the vehicle/trailered. The Abel/WM style boats don't have floors to stand in and cast. Love mine!!

[Speynut]

Dave and anybody else willing to share their thoughts:

I've recently been looking at both the Watermaster and Abel ATC and seriously considering purchasing one of them for the local north coast rivers, perhaps the Sac, and really appreciate this discussion.

Anyway are there significant differences, advantages, or disadvantages between either of these two boats? From what I can see on their respective websites the main difference appears to be the Water Master's ability to accept a molded seat as an accessory.

I did note that Abel currently has a sale price of $900 their on there ATC, which was $1300. If the water master is a superior boat, are it's advantages worth the $200-300 difference in price depending on the model?

Thanks for any opinions or insights anybody might offer. John
:eyecrazy:

[Dave Drennan]

...to note about the differences between the two boats: The Abel has the inflatable seat - way more comfortable than the wood seat of the WM, and second, the Abel boat seams to be made of a heavier material that doesn't flex as much as the WM. This means that if you really need to get on your oars you can, but a pontoon may be even better than the Abel/WM style boat. The WM does have better construction re. the front foot rest, however my Abel is an older boat, so Steve may changed that part of his design. That Tote 'n Float would be a great buy.

[clyde olson]

I'll add my two cents. I bought my WM from Dave Inks in the early 90's and actually fished one Sunday with Dave on the Clark Fork outside of Missoula. Unfortunately I have not used the WM that much but it is a fine vehicle from going from point AtoB. I never fish out of it unless stopped, anchored and standing inside the boat fishing. I feel very safe in that mode; it is not safe to be drifting AND fishing at the same time in my opinion, especially when alone. It will carry a buch of stuff. The seat is not supportive and leads to back strain after a few hours of rowing. When not dangling legs through the bottom, the legs can be put in straps, but again since legs are at same level as ones hips, this position is not comfortable in short order.
I have just finished three days on the Skagit with Dennis Dickson and for the first time used the 8' Outcast pontoon boat---and as Dennis predicted, I would be asking more questions about the boat after the three days than about the fishing. I LOVED the Outcast. 1. The hard seat is very comfortable and after 6-7 hour days my back felt pretty good. 2. The metal(rather than the strap on the WM) foot rest was positioned below my pelvis and was much more comfortable than the WM and I could get much better leverage when rowing. 3. The Outcast is faster and more maneuverable than the WM. I can't imagine spey casting out of either craft. 4. Breaking down my Sage 15' 8wt several times a day would be a real minus with either craft. On the WM the rod would have to be broken down or you would have 5-6' of the rod sticking out the bow(that's 'back' isn't it?) and therefore very vulnerable. Dennis took the butt of the 15 footer and wedged it between the pontoon and metal frame near his foot, then ran the rod near his chair velcroing it to the seat so that the tip rose 5' beyond the bow and about 4-5' above the water line, unlike the WM where the tip would be about 8 inches above the water line. Putting the 15footer VERTICALLY in a rod holder in either craft doesn't seem doable. In three days of fishing with the Outcast the rod was never in danger.
In sum, they are both great boats. I did more enjoy the pontoon boat and especially if ferrying around a long spey rod, the pontoon boat in my relatively brief experience is the preferred craft.

[Speynut]

Clyde,
Thanks for adding your thoughts to the discussion. Were you using an outfitter's Outcast pontoon boat or a friend's, or your own that you had to set up?

The reason I ask is that I'm wondering if you had been using somebody else's boat, which was ready to go such that you didn't have to deal with the 20 - 30 minute prep time, this might effect your perspective.

I guess what I'm trying to learn is that if you had to deal with the relatively minor set upinconvenience of setting up a pontoon boat each on each river trip, would you still feel the added comfort of this style craft is worth the trouble? Or, would your perspective change and you would overlook greater comfort of the pontoon craft and accept the ergonomic short comings of your water master simply because it's more convenient and less time consuming to set up?
John

[clyde olson]

We used Dennis Dicksons 2 Outcasts(www.outcastboats.com) which were as I remember Dennis telling me about 7-8 years old and have been used a LOT by Dennis for his guided trips and on-the-river classes. He is happy with their performance.So from the git-go our crafts were inflated, carried to our put-in on a trailer behind the truck, and were always ready to go. That's the professional mode and would not be what I would do. I have a rack atop my car and since I have to travel 300 miles up to N.Carolina to trout fish, I have decided not to put my WM there or the Outcast because traveling the highway at 65mph would make me uncomfortable---atop the car they would not be very aerodymamic. Either would be broken down, put in my trunk, and re-assembled at the fish site. Where small distances are concerned---back and forth from the stream to the motel--I would put the 28lb. WM or the 55lb Outcast atop the car. The WM can be partially deflated and put in the trunk of the car; the Outcast frame can be broken down into four parts and carried with partially de-flated pontoons in the trunk when on the highway. Now please understand, I do not own an Outcast(OC), but from what I understand about the construction of the Outcast, what I suggest is doable.
Now I am going to be more positive about what I said in the first post--I LOVED the outcast: it's FIRM BACK seat was very comfortable and with it and the metal foot stirrups I could get some real good leverage rowing. You need a good seat to be comfortable. Water-dynamically, the OC is faster, qicker, and more maneuverable. Some efficiency is lost in rowing with the WM since the oars are fixed to the pontoons which absorb some of your rowing effort unlike the OC whose oar system is fixed to a metal frame--maybe not a really big deal, but a factor. Bottom line I have used each enough to know that even if it takes a bit more effort to ready the OC for battle, if I plan to spend 6-9 hours on the water, I want it to be with an OC. I will give here a plug for my guide Dennis Dickson---it was a great three days on the Skagit.

[nevada caster]

I have an PAC 900 Outcast, a Kodiak Water Master and a Ford Expedition. Even torn apart, the Outcast takes up a lot of space in the back of the Expedtion.
When I am going on a trip where I am definitely going to float, I take the Outcast partially inflated. If I am going steelheading where I am mostly using a spey rod, and MAY want water transport, I take the Water Master in its bag. I never fish out of either boat. I much prefer to walk the bank and look for opportunites.
I believe tht the WM is the more stable boat for rough water, and it definitely carries more . The OC is faster, has a better seat, a better perch to see what is ahead, and handles better.

Now if we could just get a hybrid of the two!

[Rick J]

I was looking at the Dave Scadden pontoons at the San Rafael show and was pretty impressed. they make two that are close to 12' long and appear to be very stable (rated for class IV) as well as two different 9' models. One poster above asked about using a boat in the salt. The Bimini Twist comes with a push pole and oars and has a motor mount. You can stand up in them quite easily (not sure I wold do this in moving water). Looks like a pretty good concept. I expect the bigger Outcasts (made for two) would be stable enough to stand up in also though the Outcasts are more $'s than the Scaddens

[Canuck]

Congratulations ElkMCC, you are building superb rafts. The new improvements, such as a highly supportive seat, pointy stern and bow, and superb craftsmanship and warranty support, will be tough to beat! Not to mention a highly competitive price! Now, if only I can get my anchor.....

[Steelheader69]

I was far from off on my assessment. A true whitewater grade cataraft is as stable as any sort of raft. They are usually made with wider diameter tubes and I can/have stood up on tubes to land fish without fear of falling over. I've even walked around my cat playing a fish on my 9' steelheader. I'm not directly associated in the boat industry, but I've run whitewater boats for over 20 years, mostly in the then new catarafts. Your whitewater grade catarafts are MUCH different then these fishing "pontoon boats". A whitewater grade cataraft has a much higher capacity and rides you higher in the water. You can safely stand up at anchor on even the smallest boats (smallest I've seen is the 9' Steelheader). A pontoon grade boat has a continous curved hull, which at that size of these pontoon boats is great for maneuverability but crappy for stability. You achor one up, it pops a wheelie. You anchor a whitewater grade boat and they stay level, even in the 9' sized whitewater graded boats. I can safely free drift and fish in my Steelheaders. But, you have heavier tubes, heavier frames, and heavier holding capacity. I know you're in the business, so you should know there is a difference. As I said, the WM is the way to go over a pontoon grade boat. They aren't made to fish from, they are made to float in. Even on achor standing up on seat in a pontoon grade boat (outcasts, bucks, scaddens, etc) they are unstable. Like I said, if you want purely a light boat to float hole to hole from, a WM is a great way to go. But, if you want a serious fishing boat, the Steelheader style boats are virtually a mini driftboat (their 9' boats handle more weight then most 12' boats by CDC and outcast/bucks). Plus, they have a bigger footprint in the water, more waterline of course makes for more stability. The only thing that changes is that the WM style boats have tubes all the way around, whereas a cataraft/pontoon boat has front/rear open. But as I assume you've whitewatered, rafts have a tendency to bucket in hard runs. They hit waves like they were walls and usually have to creep over then. With catarafts, they shoot through them, actually cutting into them since there's less resistance on the bow.

I know I'm young, but I've put thousands of ours easily on rafts/catarafts running whitewater over the years. I used to be the bulk hauler boat for some of my whitewater guide friends on multiday trips. I could handle big water with much heavier loads then most of the bucket boats (and SB's). So I know how they handle and pro's and cons. I like the WM's, but they aren't what I'd need for a boat. I like virtually a mini driftboat. I get that from a steelheader, plus the running ability of a cataraft. I've actually hooked fish single man boondogging and set anchor while standing up. I didn't have to brace myself much, for even in DB's you'll get movement on anchor placement. Like I said, WM's are great, and I say better then pontoon grade boats, but I prefer cataraft (whitewater) grade boats. They are a different beast over these pontoon grade boats. I've turned alot of guys over to the hardcore boats. In long run, which you can attest to, you get what you pay for. Very rarely do you buy a whitewater grade boat as cheap as the manufactured fishing pontoon boats. I know the CDC 16' pontoon boat costs LESS then just my TUBES on my 16' boat. But, I can hold easily more then 1200#'s more then the boat in the Cabela's magazine. Shows difference between the grades and stability of the boats.

[Steelheader69]

We do have an inflatables section over on the main BB. So check it out and ask questions if you'd like. I'd also like to add this. When you look at boats, remember that the cheaper you get, there is usually, and I stress usually something cheapened to build the boat. Alot of the manufacturers out there have their boats built at same factory over in China. Why you see cookie cutter pontoons. Normally all the same grade boats.

When you look at boats, remember that tubes carry most of expense of your boat. Most good whitewater grade tubes that hold serious weight usually will run you about $1200-1500 for 10-12' pontoons ALONE. You run up to Sotar, Wing, and Maravia, look at spending nearly $2000+ JUST FOR TUBES in the smaller 10-12' range. These boats will handle alot differently then the lower end boats that cost as much for whole package that good tubes usually cost. I've run class 5 waters, and have run hard waters with my then class 4 rated outcasts back in early 90's. They did not handle as well as my whitewater boats (which I assume was because of length). I bought my first Steelheader in early 90's when I first saw them out in production. I ran a class 5 with it and it rode almost as well as my big cats, and 500% better then the outcasts. The small rocker hulled boats you'll spend more time trying to keep boat up and up then actually running it.

But, if any of you have any questions or comments, come to the inflatables section.

[Canuck]

Steelheader69

Could you let me know how long does it take to assemble and take down your boat? Do you use a trailer or can the frame etc.. fit in your pickup/car? Also, what is the overall weight of your boat. Up here in Alberta, the streams are sufficiently small (most up to level II rapids), that Water Master is as much of a boat that you will ever need. Also, I fished from the WM on the Bow river without any problems! Not to mention set up time (5 minutes) and takedown time (10 minutes) and awesome portability (since WM does not have a frame).

Based on what you wrote it seems to me that your style of boat is significantly more expensive, whenb compared to WM. Am I correct?

[Steelheader69]

I can take apart and put together in just around 10-15 minutes each way. They are heavier, the whitewater (class 5 rated) frames and boat weigh in at around 75#'s. But I can haul when I'm not injured around 250-300#'s so it's no sweat for me to lug around. But if you buy the Osprey models, they are only class 3 rated, but only weigh in at around 40#'s. They are heavier, not made to be packing in. That's why I said the WM type boats are great depending on what your need is. I don't lake fish, I only river fish. And most of my floats are right near/on river to launch.

It depends on where I'm going and what I'm doing. I've been known to leave my Steelheader inflated on top of my truck while I'm towing my travel trailer. I never trailer the smaller boats. But, I'll put 12'+ boats on trailer. Makes much easier to just drop in. I have a cataraft trailer anyways, so might as well use it. The 9 and 10' Steelheaders break down pretty small for the way the frames are built. But boat fits easily in back of a pickup truck or car, especially taken down (I've thrown mine in my commuter car, a Subaru Justy).

Yes, they are more expensive. Most steelheaders run around $1400-1700. But you have basically a mini drifter/small driftboat. Safe and secure, easily stand up and fish on the move. No, I don't fish rapids, but I'll boondog on the float. So I'll let oars stay in water and free drift. Then do a controlled mend on line through slot. Plus, alot easier to stand up and play fish around the boat. I've found sitting it's hard to effectively fight, I would normally oar to shore with my outcasts. This one I can anchor up and net from boat (which I've done many times). But, with catarafts, you get what you pay for. A good set of tubes (truly whitewater tubes) will run you about $800-1000 just for TUBES on a 9' boat.

[Canuck]

Steelheader69

Have you ever had a need tp porage your raft due to obstructions in the river (i.e. log jams etc..)? Do yu have to take your boat down and reasemble?

[Steelheader69]

I've had to portage because of sweepers. Never had a problem moving boat, but as I said, I can toss 80#'s like it's nothing when I'm not hurt.

I do take my boat down occasionally. Usually though I keep my boats inflated in my garage, or at least keep the frames together and tubes half inflated. When I first bought my steelheader, I was taking it down quite a bit. I was doing alot of lone fishing, so would throw a bike in back of car with my steelheader in pieces. Then dump off bike and assemble steelheader at the launch.

I actually sold off my Steelheader recently. I'm actually in process of upgrading steelheaders. I had one of the first generation boats. They're even better now. I'm looking at buying a 10' guide and a 12' Steelheader. I'm in process of selling off my 16' boat with old frame setup, and buying a set of 14' Steelheader tubes for my custom fishing frame (the 14' Steelheader tubes holds about the same as my 16' Aire Ocelots). Pretty amazing, since my 16' can hold up to 1800#'s.