new lines from SA

[Salar-1]

Anyone heard of an update on the new XLT lines from SA.The Canadian SA rep,. is NOT has no knowledge of these lines
TIA Brian(Penta from ISC)

[Rick J]

If you are talking about the extended taper lines, I saw Way (Spey Bubba) at the San Mateo sport show and he indicated they may be out this spring

[Scott K]

I inquired about them to SA at the end of January. I received a repy from Bruce Richards from SA a week ago saying that they would have been unveiled at the San Mateo show if they were ready, but they weren't. The tapers are 99 percent complete he said and that they should be available, hopefully by the end of March (which sucks I guess as I was hoping to pick one up around now, but it should be worth the wait).

By the way, I picked up an SA C and F fly box for my Steelhead patterns. What an awesome fly box!! Great design!

Scott

[fisshman26]

Just a quick note to say that the wait will be worth it! If you are a long-liner this will be the line for you. unlike other long taper lines this one casts short extremelly easy and when going for distance always turns over properlly even with a looong leader. It also throws tips better than most other lines out there.

[RLN]

I have fished this line for one afternoon on the thompson river and i am unsure what the big hype is really all about. Yes it is a very long tapered line but I like to use big flies (1/0 to 4/0) and the taper was so fine at the tip, i could not make the line turn over with the big flies. I had a 9150-4pc sage with a matching line loaned to me by the rep. That afternoon I foshed it was a bit windy, also the taper was so fine I was also unsure about where you would cut it to use it with sink tips. To me it is a line for small flies and days of no wind maybe something like a nice day on the bulkley or rivers like it. I do not think it will be much of a winter fishing line.

[doublespey]

Thanks RLN, for a little prespective! :)

Silk had many fine qualities as a flyline, and there are some right now investigating it's properties to attempt to incorporate them into a modern durable flyline. It will not, however, be the "Savior of Long Liners" no matter how they may want to hype it as such if and when it's finally released.

Ditto for SA's current offering. I'm sure it's a fine line, and I'll probably break down at some point and try one. But the hype surrounding this line is ridiculous:eyecrazy: :hehe:

my .02,

DS

[Whistler]

I have to agree with RLN(Rob?) I had similar thoughts on the line. Although it did do some things well I wasn't blown away like I was hoping. I spoke at length with Bruce Richards, learning that there was more than one prototype in circulation.It is possible that the line that I fished may be quite different than the final product.The design of this line is quite specialized and may not suit everyone's style of long linin'. I am not convinced that you need to have line as thick as a garden hose to mend a long line and it certainly makes for a different feel while fishing. When finished I will give this line another day in court with an open mind. I would suggest the best thing to do is try the line before buying as it is, to it's credit, something a little different.Brian Niska

[RLN]

With all the talk about this new sa line I am suprised that no one has mentioned the new cortland multi tip spey lines that are about to hit the market here in canada (within the next 3 weeks) and are probably available now in the u.s. I have also used a sample of this line and due to the large loops it was very easy to change the tips for winter run fishing. When changing tips you did not need to cut the fly off so I was more incline to change the tip to match the river flow.

[andre]

RLN,

Can you describe the Cortland lines? Regarding the SA lines I speculate that they are creating and leting the hype build at this point. Looking back a few months in the posts the lines were to be released in Jan/Feb. While I'm sure the taper is complex it's not like they started at ground zero. If "XLS" truely is a summer type line out of the box why not le the hype develop, and bring them to market closer to the time people will think of using them.

Just look at all the Hype around the Derek Brown Favorites. Very nice casting rod but not for everyone. Now they are surfacing on the used market at a $300-$400 savings.

I'm sure after they are out a short time the despondents will rise to the surface and raise questions and concerns regarding the design.

Like many others I an looking forward to the release of these "new" designs.

andre

[RLN]

The first run of lines was more or less a windcutter copy that after
all the feedback they recieved at the fly tackle dealer show in salt
lake city in sept/01 the head lenght was changed. I have not seen the final product but expect to recieve a 10/11 line within the next 10 days. I was told the head lenghts would vary for the line weight as most would not expect to cast a 12'-13' 6/7wt as far has a 15'-16' 10/11wt. I hope to find out more next week when the sportsman show in toronto ends this weekend.

[fisshman26]

RLN, funny I never have problems turning over the big flies:devil: with the line, and if you never have tried it with loops and tips how can you say that it wont work well for tips?
The market for these lines will be very small and it IS surprising that they will be going to market as they are definitlly not for everyone, just like no one rod is for everyone. But for those of us who have been splicing lines for a long time to acheive the results that these lines do, they will be very fun to play with and no I wont stop splicing lines just because these lines are out there and I will get some for chopping up. That is what is so fun about the spey there are many new and old ideas to explore, and I would implore people to have a open mind and just have fun!

[lastcaststeve]

RLN,
Having cast more than a couple of the SA protos, my greatest chuckle came from the comparison of the line with a windcutter..It just makes me wonder what the true agenda here is? ....I certainly wouldn't criticize a windcutter, because i feel it has a very nice niche of its' own for spey casters who only visit the water once or twice a year with a guide...If you grew up throwing spinners and wobblers with a bait casting rig as I did, you can load a spey rod and throw a wind cutter...for quality guides attempting to hook their clients into fish and relying on tips at the end of the day...providing them with a line system that allows them to cover the water at all, provides a needed niche...short headed fly line systems do this...but so will the new SA lines...if however, you prefer the benefits as the posts in another thread regarding shooting heads vs. long bellied lines suggest, than given that you have an open mind enough, and have practiced enough, the Sa lines will help you achieve this. I am quite obviously a long bellied fanatic and have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion regarding both the attributes of short and long bellied systems...to this point I have remained quiet...I have spliced lines for several years now and merely appreciate that I will not have to anymore. I have cast quite a few line designs, taken a few classes, taught a few classes and can quite comfortabley say that while a fair proportion of my casts are not perfect particulary with short head type systems...I have never blamed the line that I was throwing....If you like a windcutter, throw one..once or twice a year...if you like longbellied...you'll like the new SA line...my 0.02

[loco_alto]

LCS

I'm not so sure that the comparison was between the new SA line and a Windcutter, but rather perhaps between the new Cortland multi-tip line and the Windcutter. This latter comparison is not too surprising, since I was under the impression that the original Windcutters were built by Cortland anyway.

the light tip of the new SA line? This caused me fits when I followed bubba's formula for slicing in a TT 5/6. Perhaps I'm not a good enough caster . no debate here.

Steve

[kush]

Now I really don't want to be an "I told you so", but. It is one thing for "expert" casters to cast a line like a "speydriver", however, the commercial success of ANY line will come at the hands of everyday casters. It seems a bit unfair that when a few of the prototypes get into the hands of some regular fishermen and they are not gushing about it, that people connected to the line jump in with both feet to squash what appears to be legitimate and unsolicited reports/opinions. It kind of makes me wonder what the actual "agenda" is.

This board can be a fabulous forum for sharing ideas, discussing issues and even products, but I start to get a bit annoyed when it is , or at least appears to be abused by commercial interests. It seems to me that there was another thread a little while ago that was talking about revenues, or lack of them on the web-site. Maybe some of the major tackle producers should take out some ads and tell us about their products!

[Per Stadigh]

What you bring up is vital if this board shall remain to be a great source of valid info., mainly brought together by us users, rather than by the reps. of the tackle industry.

I think it would be good if those of us that are within the trade, one way or another, did declare our background. Then anyone can make a fair judgement of our comments.

I am more than happy to start:

I am working part time, as a consultant, for Northern Rivers Company that own the Rynda, Kharlovka, and E. Litza fishings in Russia. As such I am biazed, but those knowing me, can assure that I will give honest comments on all Kola destinations.

I have access to rods for field testing from Thomas&Thomas, Sage, and Loop. I am not tied to any of them, and comment freely.
My Loomis rods I have bought used, without any discounts.

I get my reels from Loop, and feel no need to look further.

I get lines from Airflo and Loop, but buy lots of other ones, including mill ends.

For wading gear I am sponsored by Simms.

A declared Swede,
Per

[lastcaststeve]

Kush, Per,
I wholeheartedly agree with you both with respect to the purpose of the board and sharing information and views on spey topics. My intent above was not to belittle. I don't consider myself an expert caster, nor expert on anything else spey for that matter. I am not a representative for any line or rod company nor do i have any personal connections to any of the above, other than friendships.....I have however cast many of the proto SA lines and thoroughly enjoy them. The SA lines certainly wont cast themselves, but i think people should at least give them an honest try.

steve

[RLN]

I was not comparing the new sa line to a windcutter just repling to the question asked about the new cortland that is about to come out. From the new sa line I saw there is no other factory line available here in B.C. where I fish mostly that is anything like it. As far as the sink tip comment it appear that the taper in the new sa line was so fine that it is not that it will not work with tips only to cut and add loops at the right location you may be cutting it back at a 30or 40 foot mark to go with the right diameter to turn over a sink tip. I personally will own one or two of these lines when they are commercialy available because like most of the rest of you the curiosity factor will be there and I will also no doubt get some of the new cortland lines too. I am just an average spey fisherman with an open mind looking for something new to help keep the personal interest level up.

[spey_bubba]

just a few thoughts from the line designer

(regarding affiliations: i am on the scott pro staff, and i am pretty sure that any posts i have made related to rod opinions reflect this relationship. i pay for everything else i use, and have literally spent a not so small 4 figure fortune cutting and splicing lines together over the years!)

i am surprised at the rather fervent polarization that the upcoming XLT lines appear to have engendered... i have previously posted the design goals of the line (among others, not to replace any existing line, but to add to the armamentarium of those who wish to take advantage of a long bellied line). when we look at the flyfishing industry as a whole, it is only a $600 million/yr industry... as an entire industry, i don't even think it would make a fortune 500 company!

jim bartschi, the president of scott is also on the afta board, and i were recently talking about industry related stuff in san mateo. of all the fishermen out there, fly fishing may represent perhaps 3-4% of the total fishing market, and those of us who are spey-heads probably represent 2-3% of that fraction. (the money is definitely in bass fishing, my friends!) therefore, by definition, the market for these lines will be small!

however, as many of us prefer different rods for different conditions, seasons, or styles, my hope is that this line will fill the niche for a true long-bellied line. just as an accomplished skier may have a quiver of skis (fats for powder, shapes for groomers, mid-fat twin-tips for freestyle, tele boards for touring), this line hopefully will fit in the quiver of tools for the dedicated spey fisher.

one doesn't need to feel compelled to cast all of the line! i tried to design these lines so that they would cover the range most used for a given application, yet provide "overhead" clearance for those experts among us who really can fish a 140 foot cast. there will always be compromises in design, and this line is no exception... i like it with tips, and it works well for me and others who cast similarly... just as we would never be able to convince per to switch all to a long belly style, we would never be able to convert lastcaststeve to go for shooting heads. to each his own! viva la difference!

[spey_bubba]

just a quick response to andre's post

there is nothing sinister or machiavellian about the release of the XLT. truly, SA is not trying to milk or hype the line. it just simply is not ready, and won't be until we are completely happy with it. there are other issues which are not as obvious, like packaging, color, printing, etc. which all take time too.

this line is also extremely difficult and expensive to manufacture, with many complex taper elements interspersed with flat sections; much more involved than any existing commercially produced line, single handed or spey, and quite critical in several sections.

SA also has numerous other committments, and other lines and projects underway, which have delayed the original release dates. there hasn't been a line like this out since grant's day, so a little delay hopefully won't make a huge difference in the long run!

for those who will enjoy it, i hope it will open up some doors previously locked, for those who will be disappointed in it, i can only apologize in advance.

btw, there are no recent prototypes in general circulation. all protos outside of the industry are early prototypes, for what it's worth.

[juro]

I hope when it's ready for prime time that this community could receive enough of these lines to try them firsthand in the field. Will this kind of direct interaction be valuable, and can you make it occur for us?

thanks,

Juro

[spey_bubba]

hello juro

i have limited pull with SA; it's not like i am a world class caster like tim rajeff! i am just flattered that SA was interested in my line ideas. i will always be available to try to answer any questions to the best of my ability regarding the design intent and performance goals for the line, and am always interested in feedback, both positive and negative!

i imagine that by the spey clave, the lines, at least in several weights, should be commercially available, and i know that lastcaststeve will be using them to demonstrate his casting style at the clave; for those who may be interested in seeing the potential of these lines demonstrated to their max, the clave may be a good opportunity to check them out.

i also teach spey casting fairly frequently around the northwest, i try to make myself available to answer any questions as they arise!

[andre]

Way,

Wow "sinister or machiavellian" I don't think I got that dramatic did I?

Anyway, I sorry if you took it personnal there was no intended malice. Being an advocate for the long line, I am casting a line based on the theorys of Grant and DB and as I mentioned I am looking forward to these lines being released.

Maybe you don't see it as hype but, when it gets posted (neither by yourself or Steve)about these lines being the second coming....well that comes across as marketing hype particularly when the circulation of the proto lines is in control of SA and it representatives. To your credit, I believe you also mentioned these have a niche. I suspect most of the dispondents will be people who have seen the likes of Steve or Tyler throw a country mile with long belly line. They make the investment however, can not generate the lines speed and or the stroke length to turn these lines over.


andre

[spey_bubba]

hi andre

certainly didn't wish to infer that scully or mulder should get involved... i seriously have no idea which protos of which line weight are circulating about, but know that they must be older earlier protos.

i have certain protos out to individual testers (like steve and other friends). i know relatively recent protos have been out to jerry siem at sage for feedback, and i cast recent protos with mel krieger and paul johnson in san mateo; these are the only industry protos i know of that are out there... but then again, it's SA's business, not mine!

[fisshman26]

Andre, would you be referring to me? I, like yourself and many others have been influenced by Derek and Grant in both casting and line design ideas. I have been casting these types of lines for some time now and have always tried to improve where I could and have dropped some serious cash in lines for chopping(like many others I am sure) and splicing and while I dont believe that these lines are for everyone, I do believe that they do go beyond their intended niche. If I come off as being overlly excited about the lines it is because I feel(and I stress that it is my own opinion) that these lines are an improvement on what I have been using up untill now. I have no ties other than friendships and am very happy that Way has made his excellant posts here, that may clear up some of the xxxx that has been slung.

[juro]

Spey_bubba thanks for the reply, I'd appreciate it if you could PM or email me a contact over at SA so Dana and I can approach them to get a few of these lines in the hands of the anglers in this community. In fact I don't think there is another community on the entire internet that would provide as much feedback as this one, and I sure hope we don't have to drop that kind of cash just to learn about them before we buy them. Of course we FF'ers willingly put up the ante to play this expensive sport of ours, but the trick is to direct those big bucks toward the most worthwhile investments. It may be $600m in equipment sales but the business by and large is billions into the economy. I know it gets a good share of my $$ :rolleyes:

thanks in advance for the contact info,

Juro

[Whistler]

Spey Bubba, congrats on getting your line out there I'm sure it's been a long time coming. As mentioned earlier I fished a prototype briefly in the fall, I think it was one of the earlier ones(#10).I hate to say it but I think I spent more time weighing and examining the line than I did casting it. I am curios as to how far back you have been looping in your sink tips and also (if you can) where the factory tips will be added. I am looking forward to giving the finished product another go, especially as to how it will handle tips.BN

[Dana]

Way, Steve, Bruce et al:

I don't think anyone involved with the development of these new SA lines need be overly concerned about the lines being given a fair assessment by members of this board or any other casters--indeed, I think this is exactly the point made by several of the people who have posted on this thread. There has been a lot of chat about these lines being the ultimate answer to anyone's spey casting needs on this board and in other places, and the bottom line is that some of us will like them and some of us won't.

There is always a danger in raising expectations to the point where the product can never hope to deliver, and I think in some ways perhaps this is what might have started to happen with these lines. And now that a few other people have had a chance to cast versions of this line we are starting to see a balanced view emerging. I see this as healthy and positive and useful for any product developer--any and all feedback will ultimately help in the development of a better product. This is the case with every line in existence: when the Windcutter was in R&D various protos were circulated to casters who commented on the lines, and in the end RIO used all that information--the positive and the negative--to come up with the current taper.

Now, not everyone likes the Windcutter, but that doesn't make it a bad line or a line for amateurs or dilettantes--to master it and release its full potential takes a great deal of practice, as with any other line. It is a great design and suits many casters. So too with the Loop Adapted lines and the new Airflo Delta Tapers. And I think in the end we will see a similar thing happen with the new SA offering.

I think what might be really interesting and useful to casters is to have insight into the line development process. Since the new SA line is fast approaching release, it might be cool to have an in-depth look at the steps involved in the development of this new line.

Way, if you are interested in something like this, let me know and we can put it together for the Spey Pages. If there are concerns about "trade secrets", we can get it prepared so that it can be published along with the release of the line--I don't think any of the members would object to that. I think something of this sort is possibly of greater use and benefit to us all than endless back-and-forth about whether or not a line that hasn't even been released yet is the best Spey line ever made.:)

[Dana]

...I'll contact Bruce Richards at SA and see about getting a couple of samples to pass around.

[andre]

Fisshman, no I was not refering to you as many have spoke of virtues of these lines. BTW, I have cast a proto as well and liked the line at distance when the wind was down.

[Dana]

Bruce will send along a few samples when they are ready for release.

[spey_bubba]

hello dana, juro

thanks for the interest in the line design and production process. it has been quite involved, much more so than i originally anticipated, and i learned a great deal about how pvc lines are designed and made.

i would be happy to post a summary of the developmental process which has occured over the last year or so on this public board as time permits, if the other readers would be interested.

[Dana]

Hi Way!

I’d like to do an interview/article to appear on the Spey Pages later this year. I believe this to be the best approach all around and it will help to minimize concerns about this forum being used as a platform for free advertising.

Email me either through the forum or at blacksalmon@hotmail.com if you’d like to discuss further.

[spey_bubba]

dana

i am flattered by your interest in the line design process but i believe that posting a description of the process on a free site (provided there is reader interest) will not equate to free advertising; i think everyone potentially interested in this line knows who is making the line (SA), and who designed it.

if any readers are interested in the process itself, it really could be any line, and any manufacturer, not necissarily this particular offering... although the process itself has been quite fun, occasionally frustrating, and always interesting, i would rather post on a free site as opposed to a subscription e-zine for the same concerns you raise regarding free advertising...

this of course depends on my finding out what SA considers proprietary manufacturing information!

thanks again for the offer!

[Dana]

I think perhaps I've been unclear about my proposed article, Way. I would run it on the Spey Pages main site (speypages.com, which is a free site) as a feature, possibly around the same time we review the line, not as a newsletter article.

Hope this clears things up, and I'll look forward to your email to discuss further! :)