Spey casting vs Underhand casting.

[fredaevans]

Excellent vid out of the UK. http://www.youtube.com/user/HMFlyFishing#p/u/4/ldOCnZa3eJo

Should note, this guys vid's are like pop-corn ... 'bet you can't eat just one.'

fae

[SkagitMiester]

Good video Fred- thanks for posting- I'll be going back for more.

[klickrolf]

Very interesting video. Have to consider what he's saying...and what motivated this video cause I think there are alot of problems with it. My take is Mr Morgan is a fan of shooting heads and shooting head rods and I don't think his justification works...I think it's Bullsh..!

1) Do you think fish are spooked by ripping a line off the water 50 or 70, or 90 or 100' from where they hold? I submit that there is so much noise in the water that anything 50' away is not even noticed by the fish. Though I do see that the "river" he's casting into does not seem to be moving much, looks alot like slack water. Does a lighter (per foot) longer belly line make more noise than a shorter heavier head when double or single speycasting...I think not.

2) How do short strokes cover more water? Do you need loads more room behind you to execute a spey cast, maybe a little but angles are always available.

3) What does that slippery slim tip add to the power of the cast, not much if anything I'll wager.

4) Why do spey lines need to be switched for a sink tip, thought I had a bunch of mid-speys and delta's with tips that I don't need a different spool to fish.

5) Underhand?... I'm probably not informed but I tend toward spey rods and almost all the power that I can generate from a "spey" rod comes from my bottom hand, that allows the entire taper to get involved. Someone please tell me where I'm wrong here!!

The whole thing is odd to me as is the logic. Please tell me if I'm feeding Bullsh...!!

[Dana]

Very interesting video. Have to consider what he's saying...and what motivated this video cause I think there are alot of problems with it. My take is Mr Morgan is a fan of shooting heads and shooting head rods and I don't think his justification works...I think it's Bullsh..!

1) Do you think fish are spooked by ripping a line off the water 50 or 70, or 90 or 100' from where they hold? I submit that there is so much noise in the water that anything 50' away is not even noticed by the fish. Though I do see that the "river" he's casting into does not seem to be moving much, looks alot like slack water. Does a lighter (per foot) longer belly line make more noise than a shorter heavier head when double or single speycasting...I think not.

2) How do short strokes cover more water? Do you need loads more room behind you to execute a spey cast, maybe a little but angles are always available.

3) What does that slippery slim tip add to the power of the cast, not much if anything I'll wager.

4) Why do spey lines need to be switched for a sink tip, thought I had a bunch of mid-speys and delta's with tips that I don't need a different spool to fish.

5) Underhand?... I'm probably not informed but I tend toward spey rods and almost all the power that I can generate from a "spey" rod comes from my bottom hand, that allows the entire taper to get involved. Someone please tell me where I'm wrong here!!

The whole thing is odd to me as is the logic. Please tell me if I'm feeding Bullsh...!!

Yeah, no disrespect to Mr Morgan but there is a certain amount of misinformation presented in this (very well produced) video. A lot of this stuff was put to rest in North America a number of years ago, but it could be that some of the instructors in the UK who have been Speycasters are now catching up because their clients are interested in the Underhand style...(I think he mentions this)

Some comments in random order:

1. Rod Action: traditionally yes Spey rods tended to have a more full-flexing action, while the Underhand rods were quick progressive sticks, but nowadays we just cast in whatever style we want with our favorite rod.

2. You can indeed Underhand cast longer belly lines (watch the Syrstads again--I saw Knut underhand cast the head of an XLT years ago at Spey-O-Rama). I hurt my arm years ago and had to learn to cast underhand and now it's pretty much all I do. I had planned to demo this in the RIO vid but we decided it would be too confusing

3. IF you are using only full floating and full sinking line then yes, a spare spool is a good idea, but lots of people (most I think) have moved on to multi-tip lines so extra spools are not necessary.

4. He doesn't really go into the technique. He mentions using the bottom hand but if you watch carefully his style still favors a "push" by the top hand. Watch the Syrstad Brothers in their DVDs, Mortensen in his, or me on the RIO DVD to see the use of the bottom hand a bit more clearly.

5. I too used to believe that "stripping and shooting" = less fishing time...but stripping back can certainly be a productive way of fishing. It depends on what you believe. Unlike trout, most of what is believed these days about salmon and steelhead fising is still theory. We can watch trout feeding; a bit tougher to observe anadromous fish consistently over time. How do you catch 'em? As Kush says, "Just huck it out there and every now and then one of them comes along and yanks on it."

6. Line splash disturbing fish: I don't know enough about Atlantics so I can't comment, but steelhead don't seem too bothered by this. Also, a careful caster can greatly reduce the amount of disturbance by, well, being careful!

[klickrolf]

Thanks for responding Dana! Been hoping for a response cause I thought it very interesting. I'm critical of this video but don't mean any disrespect, just think it's not what it seems to be. We all do what we do because we think it's the best way to do it...at least I hope we do. There's more here than addressed originally.

How about mending? The rod flex profiles in the video are very illuminating, if you think about them. While swinging we generally work to slow the fly down. Can we do this effectively with a 25' head, 15' tip and 30' of running line...and a wimpy tip? Been there done that and know a longer belly line and a through action rod will provide notable mending benefits...mostly accomplished with the bottom hand.

Thought most of the attraction to the short heads was heavy tips to get big stuff deep...didn't even hear it mentioned??

[Tyke]

I agree with most of the above comments, however, I think one area of difference is the water in which Atlantics choose to lie as opposed to that preferred by Steelhead. From what I've read [no first hand experience yet, let me get Tarpon of my ''bucket list'' in Florida next month first] Steelhead seem to prefer the marginal strips in flowing water whereas Atlantics tend to lie out in the middle in the main flows, although admittedly often tucked in the pressure bulge of a rock on the river bed. As a result the multi tip fished off a floating belly has become the default seeting of most steelhead chasers as it achieves the depth coming across the flow & then fishes at fairly constant depth in the fish holding marginal strips - which is the optimal presentation.
By contast this would fail to get down fully in the strong flows in the middle of the stream favoured by Atlantics or, if a really aggressive tip were used to get down here, would then snag up as it came into the margins. Alternatively the fast mid stream flows [particularly in the fastest top water flows] would grab hold of the floating belly & swing the fly too quickly - particularly in the high, cold water conditions of early Spring & late Autumn when a slow & deep approach is generally favoured. As a result full sinkers of various rates & full floaters in Summer are still very popular line choices for Atlantics.
Personally I prefer fishing a full line as I enjoy the feel & rythmn of it [& don't like trying to manage yards & yards of running line on wider streams] but have recently taken up shooting heads [Scandi style] & am enjoying the learning curve; so no personal axe to grind here, just my observation on some of the possible differences in approach.

Regards, Tyke. [only 1 week & counting to my first week on the Dee this year - Balmoral beat & all!] -T.

[Dana]

Thanks for responding Dana! Been hoping for a response cause I thought it very interesting. I'm critical of this video but don't mean any disrespect, just think it's not what it seems to be. We all do what we do because we think it's the best way to do it...at least I hope we do. There's more here than addressed originally.

How about mending? The rod flex profiles in the video are very illuminating, if you think about them. While swinging we generally work to slow the fly down. Can we do this effectively with a 25' head, 15' tip and 30' of running line...and a wimpy tip? Been there done that and know a longer belly line and a through action rod will provide notable mending benefits...mostly accomplished with the bottom hand.

Thought most of the attraction to the short heads was heavy tips to get big stuff deep...didn't even hear it mentioned??

I received an eye-opening lesson in long distance mending with shooting heads years ago from my good friend Per Stadigh. Indeed I believed that shooting heads and running line were useless for mending...until Per politely showed me that I was incorrect. The trick was to treat the system rather like a float set-up--high rod to lift the running line off the water and maintain a direct connection between rod tip and the back of the head. I use this with Skagit heads when fishing Chinook on the Dean and it works very well.

Regarding swing speed (and remember my Atlantic salmon experience is limited to about 3- 1/2 weeks of fishing on the Gaspe and in Russia, with perhaps 45 or 50 fish hooked), it seems more advantageous to actually speed the fly up with Atlantics. I recall before the rotors started on the big chopper we flew to the Ponoi, Steffen Juhl (http://salmonjunkies.com/) instructed us to "cast square and mend downstream" to speed the fly up.

[Dana]

I agree with most of the above comments, however, I think one area of difference is the water in which Atlantics choose to lie as opposed to that preferred by Steelhead. From what I've read [no first hand experience yet, let me get Tarpon of my ''bucket list'' in Florida next month first] Steelhead seem to prefer the marginal strips in flowing water whereas Atlantics tend to lie out in the middle in the main flows, although admittedly often tucked in the pressure bulge of a rock on the river bed. As a result the multi tip fished off a floating belly has become the default seeting of most steelhead chasers as it achieves the depth coming across the flow & then fishes at fairly constant depth in the fish holding marginal strips - which is the optimal presentation.


A good friend who is a former fisheries technician once told me that steelhead are a beach fish. However, he also says "steelhead are where you find them" which echoes my experiences exactly and also connects well with my A.S. experience. I think one of the reasons why steelhead were seen as a fish of the edges for years is that in the past a lot of fly fishers lacked the skill and tackle to get the fly farther and deeper. Not so today.

[Riveraddict]

... traveling steelhead - those that are on the actual journey to reach their spawning grounds or staging areas where they will bide their time until spawning - are predominantly found on "edge" oriented holding lies because they are in fact traveling those edges as the most efficient use of their energies. Since their need to hold is for just a very temporary rest (less than 24 hours), they generally do not travel too far off of their "edge route" to find a lie to rest in. This happens to be the predominant status under which angling for winter steelhead occurs. On the other hand, staged fish - those fish that have arrived near their spawning grounds some period of time prior to their actual spawning (staged) - tend to seek out much more secure and "permanent" lies as they "intend" to be occupying them for a "lengthy" amount of time (days, weeks, even months). In this case, steelhead will choose lies that can be anywhere in the river, from the edges to the deepest guts in the middle, provided that requirements of security and low energy expenditure in "maintaining position" are met. This circumstance is the one in which many late-summer steelhead are found in. This is just a "general behavior observation" and of course there are exceptions... and no I am not a biologist but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once.

[SkagitMiester]

I didnt think there was much difference in what he said than what Simon said comparing skagit lines to long bellies in Rio's advanced spey casting-

In reference to the line ripping in the water and scaring the fish he was talking about low clear water conditions

I didnt think the clip was all that controversial - arent mid bellies and deltas sometimes considered shooting heads?

It was just weird that he never mentioned sink tips - for either set up- thats what I thought was odd.

[christian vidal]

Hi everybody, from Argentina, I´m agree with Dana, i have to say i don´t think all what mr morgan said was bullsh.... we have to remember that, noise are mechanichal waves, and actually they are transmitted by water much more faster than air, so, if you make a lot of noise splashing water with a big heavy line (Spey) you may spook the fish, and no matter they are 20 mts, they really hear every little noise. Whith Scandinavian techninque, you make D-loop just attaching just the leader and fly on the water, this never spook the fish, and you can fish with much more lighter lines/heads/bellies than Spey (traditional/modern) and Skagit.

My modest opinion.

[ERIK HELM]

He definately has an agenda. Spey is SWEEEEEEEEP all the way up and SWEEEEEEEEP around. Makes it seem tiring when the opposite is the case, especially since he calls lines 'spey' that are 55' or 65' long. Nice video though. Great production, but can be misleading.

[RogerG]

I thought the clip was excellent. I cleared up some of my ideas.

[tassiespey]

Not having wild fish in my local waters , our Atlantics are all hatchery reared and released into our waters...as well as the escapee's from the farms... These fish are fed in many of the farms by broadcasting food into the air and allowed to fall onto the water, this in itself is a noisy dinner bell to the fish and are "attracted" to it , I have been aware of this for some time and the sound of the line being ripped , attracts the fish in the area and it can be a very visual form of fishing with many strikes induced by rapid stripping once the fish is seen chasing the fly.................different strokes for different folks....
Bevin Tasmania

[Strathspey]

I think he was a bit weighted towards shooting heads too. I like shooting heads though. I use a Rio Scandi Compact that does a nice job. I have it on a Ross Reach which seems to have a slow action. I'm wondering if a longer head would be more enjoyable. Any thoughts?