Question on the double spey [Archive]

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02-02-2001, 05:40 AM

<TABLE border=1 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=100%><TR><TD nowrap width=100% valign=top><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=1>Originator: Rick J</FONT></TD><TD nowrap valign=top><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=1>Date: 2/2/2001 1:40 AM</FONT></TD></TR></TABLE><TABLE border=0 cellpadding=10 cellspacing=0 width=100% bgcolor=#FFFFFF><TR><TD><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=2><DIV><DIV>Question regarding the double spey after watching both Simon G and Derek B videos.  Simon brings the rod over the top and down low.  When he comes around, the rod is low, parallel to the water until his kick.  Derek starts with the rod high (shotgun position) and swings rod upstream rather thatn up and over then swings back still in the shotgun position similar to the single spey motion then kicks the rod up for the roll cast.  Curious what you see as pros and cons of both methods.  Bringing the rod straight up and over per Simon seems to get the line closer to the body which leaves less stick on the water  But I seem to get a better roll cast by swinging back with the rod high rather than low and parallel to the water.  When low, I seem to get too much line  behind me sticking but maybe this is because I am not giving enough kick and am kicking the rod butt out too far?</DIV></DIV></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

ISC Archives

02-02-2001, 06:49 PM

<TABLE border=1 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=100%><TR><TD nowrap width=100% valign=top><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=1>Originator: Speyrd</FONT></TD><TD nowrap valign=top><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=1>Date: 2/2/2001 2:49 PM</FONT></TD></TR></TABLE><TABLE border=0 cellpadding=10 cellspacing=0 width=100% bgcolor=#FFFFFF><TR><TD><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=2><DIV><DIV>Just a thought, could be an adjustment do to the rod action and length of line that are to be cast. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Speyrd</DIV></DIV></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

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02-03-2001, 05:37 AM

<TABLE border=1 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=100%><TR><TD nowrap width=100% valign=top><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=1>Originator: DwightJanerich</FONT></TD><TD nowrap valign=top><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=1>Date: 2/3/2001 1:37 AM</FONT></TD></TR></TABLE><TABLE border=0 cellpadding=10 cellspacing=0 width=100% bgcolor=#FFFFFF><TR><TD><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=2><DIV><DIV>Rick,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not have many years experience spey casting but I have had some personal instruction from Simon G. and have spent many hours watching the Vincent and Brown videos and struggling with the casts.  I have also given the issues surrounding your question some thought in the past.  For what they are worth, here are my conclusions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I understand it, you are wondering about the motion used to bring the line upstream so that the fly rests just downsteam of you in the double spey.  I too noticed that Simon taught us a different motion for that purpose than Derek shows on his video (which I think is the better video/instruction tool of the two).  I think of Derek's motion as a "shallow saucer" (to use Simon's words) upstream cast.  The line ends up in a nice backwards "J" on the water which appeals to my sense of the way the cast should properly be set-up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In contrast, Simon told us to raise our rods from the downstream position to eleven o'clock, pause, and then "simply drop the rod tip upsteam" and slightly out away from the bank from where you stand.  The result is an un-appealing wiggly mess of line upstream of you (and he suggests a pause at this point).  However, this motion makes it MUCH easier to place the fly consistantly exactly where you want it.  For that reason, and the reasons that follow, I use Simon's method.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was initially concerned that Simon's method left the line such that the absence of steady line stick (the "white mouse" concept) during the next motion would not properly begin to load the rod.  I suppose that is still conceivably a concern.  But, if you folllow Simon's next instructions closely, the rod loads just fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Simon's next instructions are:  think of the next motion as an upsidedown "V" so that your first movement (the one forming one side of the upsidedown "V") is markedly outward (toward the middle of the river) and at a constant velocity without acceleration.  The next motion (should appear seamless with the first) is an accelerated motion forming the other part of the upsidedown "V" and brings the rod to the firing position.  It is my belief that the first (constant velocity) part cures the wiggly mess before the next part which actually loads the rod and arealizes the line properly.  Although really getting a feel for the details of this upsidedown "V" motion is easier said than done, I believe Simon's approach is truly better than Derek's once you get it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One further advantage to Simon's method is it is more efficient because the first part of the motion takes virtually no effort.  I will be curious what others in the forum may think about your question.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dwight</DIV></DIV></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

ISC Archives

02-03-2001, 05:37 AM

<TABLE border=1 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=100%><TR><TD nowrap width=100% valign=top><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=1>Originator: DwightJanerich</FONT></TD><TD nowrap valign=top><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=1>Date: 2/3/2001 1:37 AM</FONT></TD></TR></TABLE><TABLE border=0 cellpadding=10 cellspacing=0 width=100% bgcolor=#FFFFFF><TR><TD><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=2><DIV><DIV>Rick,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not have many years experience spey casting but I have had some personal instruction from Simon G. and have spent many hours watching the Vincent and Brown videos and struggling with the casts.  I have also given the issues surrounding your question some thought in the past.  For what they are worth, here are my conclusions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I understand it, you are wondering about the motion used to bring the line upstream so that the fly rests just downsteam of you in the double spey.  I too noticed that Simon taught us a different motion for that purpose than Derek shows on his video (which I think is the better video/instruction tool of the two).  I think of Derek's motion as a "shallow saucer" (to use Simon's words) upstream cast.  The line ends up in a nice backwards "J" on the water which appeals to my sense of the way the cast should properly be set-up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In contrast, Simon told us to raise our rods from the downstream position to eleven o'clock, pause, and then "simply drop the rod tip upsteam" and slightly out away from the bank from where you stand.  The result is an un-appealing wiggly mess of line upstream of you (and he suggests a pause at this point).  However, this motion makes it MUCH easier to place the fly consistantly exactly where you want it.  For that reason, and the reasons that follow, I use Simon's method.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was initially concerned that Simon's method left the line such that the absence of steady line stick (the "white mouse" concept) during the next motion would not properly begin to load the rod.  I suppose that is still conceivably a concern.  But, if you folllow Simon's next instructions closely, the rod loads just fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Simon's next instructions are:  think of the next motion as an upsidedown "V" so that your first movement (the one forming one side of the upsidedown "V") is markedly outward (toward the middle of the river) and at a constant velocity without acceleration.  The next motion (should appear seamless with the first) is an accelerated motion forming the other part of the upsidedown "V" and brings the rod to the firing position.  It is my belief that the first (constant velocity) part cures the wiggly mess before the next part which actually loads the rod and arealizes the line properly.  Although really getting a feel for the details of this upsidedown "V" motion is easier said than done, I believe Simon's approach is truly better than Derek's once you get it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One further advantage to Simon's method is it is more efficient because the first part of the motion takes virtually no effort.  I will be curious what others in the forum may think about your question.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dwight</DIV></DIV></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

ISC Archives

02-04-2001, 09:25 PM

<TABLE border=1 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=100%><TR><TD nowrap width=100% valign=top><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=1>Originator: Rick J</FONT></TD><TD nowrap valign=top><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=1>Date: 2/4/2001 5:25 PM</FONT></TD></TR></TABLE><TABLE border=0 cellpadding=10 cellspacing=0 width=100% bgcolor=#FFFFFF><TR><TD><FONT face=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica size=2><DIV><DIV>Just got back from the San Mateo show and spent some time talking with Simon who was at the Rio booth and gave a demonstration and he also explained the "inverted V" on the double spey to me.  Very enlightening!!  Plus I ran into Bubba at the Scott booth and he spent some time with me outside patiently explaining what I was doing wrong (alot it seems!!) - got to see and try his homemade line.  Unfortunately not a real test with no water but a great experience!!  I had a post below about lighter weight spey rods - tried both the Sage new 7 wts - much preferred the 13'6" traditional action though still think it might be a bit slow to handle tips well.  Did not care for the 14' Euro style - great overhead casting but...  Unfortunately, Scott did not have their 7 wt at the show to try out - was able to compare the Scott 14' 9wt (which I have) with the Scott 15' 9wt which I want!!!!  Anyone want a Scott 14' 9 wt at a great price!!??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway - fun trip though all the hype can sure get to you.  Made a post on the VFS BB about rod design for light trout models.  Seems that many fo the new rods are really going fast action even the 1 to 3 wts - can't feel them load until you get 25 or 30 feet of line out - just seems like a very poor rod design for a light rod which should be designed for casting 5 to 20 feet!!!  Just my rant!!  </DIV></DIV></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>