Lady Caroline

[The Reel Deal]

Could somebody tell me the recipe for spey fly LADY CAROLINE?

Thanks for your help.

[SSPey]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v45/wigspix/fly.jpg

one of my favorites, as I tie it:

hook: TMC 7999
tail: golden pheasant breast
rib: gold med flat, with fine silver counterwound over hackle
body: golden olive + brown goat dubbing, mixed
body hackle: golden brown schlappen (diff than heron, but looks good)
throat hackle: golden pheasant breast
wing: bronze mallard

I fish this 1/0, and tie the wings short as in photo

[flytyer]

The Reel Deal,

Steve provided you with the most common modern version of the Lady Caroline.

However, the original differed in several respects, so I'll provide you with the pattern Kelson gives in his magnum opus on salmon flies and fishing.

It is:

tail: a few strands of golden pheasant red breast feather

body: brown and olive Berlin wool mixed together (one part olive-green and
2 parts brown) [i.e. the body is a blend of 1 part olive and 2 parts
brown dubbing (Berlin wool was pulled apart and used as dubbing
when it was specified as body material) to get a dark olive-brown
shade]

ribbing: from separate starting points (i.e. from opposite sides of the hook at
the rear of the body) fine flat gold tinsel & small oval gold tinsel, and
fine oval silver tinsel. (The fine flat gold was often left off and the fly
was tied with only the small oval gold and small oval silver tinsels)

hackle: from tail grey heron wound alongside the oval gold tinsel (modern
substitutes for heron are needed because heron is illegal to posses in
the US most commonly used are Whiting Spey Hackle, schlappen,
coche tail, blue-eared pheasant) Note, the original did not have a
counter-rib, the spey hackle was simply wrapped up the body tight
against the small oval gold tinsel after both the gold and the silver
oval tinsels were wound.

throat: golden pheasant red breast feather, 2 turns

wing: bronze mallard strips tied in by the grey area near the feather's stem
pheasant

This fly would have been tied on a long shank dee hook, so the modern
equivalent for the hook would be the Alec Jackson Spey Hook, The Partridge Bartleet, the Tiempco SP250, or one of the 6xl to 8xl limerick bend streamer hooks in the sizes #4 or larger.

[Brian Simonseth]

One of my fav's :hihi:

[BLACK FRANCIS]

flytyer, i was always under the impression that the wool was seperated in strands (originaly three strand) and wrapped in yarn form for the body. how did you come by the info that it was mixed dubbing? i'm not saying you're wrong, i would just like to know which is which. thanks.

[flytyer]

BF,

Kelson and Hale clearly describe turning the Berlin wool into dubbing in their books when they speak of mixing the various colors together to get the color, and Francis says to fray the Berling wool yarn into a dubbing and then mix it. Unfortunately, there is a huge misconception today about how to use Berlin wool when it is called for in the old salmon fly manuscripts. Ververka (an acknowledged modern expert in spey flies and tying them) also says to turn the Berlin wool into dubbing whenever Berlin wool is called for in the old dressings in his fine book SPEY FLIES: HOW TO TIE THEM.

I don't know where it got started that you twist strands of different Berlin wool colors together, but I know that George Leonard Herter says to put 2 strands of brown and a strand of olive yarn together and twist them for the body of the Lady Caroline in his book PROFESSIONAL FLY TYING, SPINNER, AND LURE MAKING, which was published back in 1948. George Leonard Herter was not a salmon fly tyer, so he either found this description somewhere, or erroneously assumed that when a pattern dressing called for Berlin wool that you simply mixed strands of it together. Twisting strands of yarn together produces a sort of mixed brown and olive yarn that it very tightly twisted and this doesn't look at all like the old antique spey flies I've seen that had bodies made of Berlin wool dubbing.

[Willie Gunn]

Why a Dee hook? the Lady Caroline was a Spey Fly?

[BLACK FRANCIS]

flytyer, thanks for the explanation.

[Gardener]

I don't know where it got started that you twist strands of different Berlin wool colors together.

Pryce-Tannatt's recipe for the Lady Caroline calls for 'olive green and light brown Berlin wools wound together in the proportion of two strands of the latter to one of the former'. I interpret this as meaning that the wools should be wound together before forming the body, rather than mixed and dubbed. In the method (for the Green King), he describes winding a single strand of Berlin wool to make the body rather than shredding and dubbing it.

Incidentally, and contrary to what you say, in the method of tying spey flies P-T also calls for one of the three tinsel ribbings (he specifies twist, I guess we would substitute oval) to be wound after the hackle, and in the opposite direction to it. From a practical point of view, this certainly seems to make sense as a way of protecting the hackle stem from teeth.

[flytyer]

Malcolm,

A long shank hook (dee hook) was the hood specified by Francis, Kelson, Hale, and Knox for spey flies, just not the monster extra long dee hooks or #3/0 and up ones used for dee flies. These authorities also specified that the body on a spey fly start in front of the hook point and having wings as long as or slightly longer than the body of the fly.

Gardner,

I'm am very aware that P-T disagreed with the older authors on the use of Berlin wool. Even with the Green King that P-T specified a single strand of green wool, the earlier authors (Kelson, Francis, Hale, and Knox-who wrote AUTUMNS ON THE SPEY, the first book on spey flies) specified using a mixture of Berlin wool dubbing composed of several different colors. For example, Kelson says the body of the Green King is a dull shade of green composed of a mixture of light green, dark green, brown, and a little yellow Berlin wool. Perhaps P-T was simply using what he perceived as a simpler or faster way to tie a body from wool.

I also know that P-T specified one of the tinsels should be wound after the spey feather has been palmered in order to prevent the hackle from unwinding should a fish's teeth cut through the hackle stem. However, Kelson, Hale, and Francis said to wind the hackle next to the oval rib. Yes, oval in the modern equivalent of P-T's twist tinsel. However, I find it curious that P-T didn't specify a counter rib on his tinsel or floss bodied flies since neither tinsel nor floss offer any protection for the hackle stem at all. Whereas, a dubbed body (or yarn as he says to do it) offers some protection to the hackle stem since it sinks into the dubbing (or yarn) a bit.

Since the books by Kelson, Hale, and Francis were writting at least 20 years prior to P-T's, and since Knox also included using a mixture of wool dubbing (he used pigs wool) for spey fly bodies in his book (which predated P-T by 50 years), I'm inclined to accept their use of wool as dubbing for spey fly bodies and not P-T's use of wool strands for the body as the prefered method.

[Gardener]

Since the books by Kelson, Hale, and Francis were writting at least 20 years prior to P-T's, and since Knox also included using a mixture of wool dubbing (he used pigs wool) for spey fly bodies in his book (which predated P-T by 50 years), I'm inclined to accept their use of wool as dubbing for spey fly bodies and not P-T's use of wool strands for the body as the prefered method.

Yes, of course the authors you mention can be said to have a 'prior claim' on the pattern. I was merely picking up on the particular point I quoted from your previous post.

You wrote: 'I don't know where it got started that you twist strands of different Berlin wool colors together', and I was trying to address that, not to say that P-T's method was 'right' or more authentic. My point is only that twisting strands of wool together seems to have been regarded as an acceptable method of forming the body prior to 1914, obviously predating the 1948 reference you mention.

On a wider point, I think that spey flies, even more than other types of pattern, don't really lend themselves to strict and formal codification. Unlike the gaudy, fully dressed patterns, spey flies were the province of the local fishermen. The materials used in their tying were for the most part sourced locally from farmyard or native wild birds, and probably from whatever wools were available in a woman's sewing bag, at little or no cost. I think it was more a matter of tying with what was available than following a recipe that was cast in stone. Indeed, Pryce-Tannatt explicitly said that "there was no such thing as a constant dressing of any Spey fly".

[halcyon]

FLYTYER,

I have a couple of questions. Where exactly does Hale discuss Dee hooks for spey flies? Where does Hale discuss Berlin wool for any fly body? My copy of Hale doesn't address either of these points at all that I can find and I would therefore be most appreciative of you pointing out the page and lines where these points are discussed.

Also, in Knox on page 67 first 2 lines after the heading OLD SPEY FLIES Knox makes his only reference to Berlin wool that I can find. He says "N.B. - The dubbing - or bodies - of all these flies is composed of Berlin wool" But his use of "dubbing" does not seem to mean "dubbing the material" but instead "dubbing = fur body" or "dubbing - the process of making a body". And since Berlin wool was specified because of its "rough shaggy" appearance as opposed to the "smooth" appearance of embrodiery wool yarns I don't believe the meaning is really all that clear. What are your thoughts?

Regards,

[flytyer]

halcyon,

Knox speaks of mixing various colors and shades of wool together to get the proper shade. For instance, the Purple King: body is lake colour composed of scarlet and purple mixed. Or the Silver Green Reeach: body is olive composed of a mixture of red, green, and purple fine Berlin wool. Knox also mentiond on page 67 that "the dubbing - or bodies - of all these flies is composed of Berlin wool." He also mentions the flies are generally tied on a "large hook" (p. 67). It is not a stretch to say the "large hook of Knox was a long shank hook. Also, since he mentions on pp. 66-67 that in spring or when the water rises larger flies are used than when the water is lower, it is obvious that Knox used spey flies of various sizes from large to more moderate lengths.

Hale speaks of using wool (which granted he calls pig's wool and not Berlin wool; but it is not a stretch to say he would do the same with Berlin wool, which was a very course wool somewhat like modern natural wool rug yarn)for bodies on pages 51-53 of his book, which is the section on forming bodies of fur. He says wool is to be "twisted on the tying silk", or dubbed (pages 36-37, and page 49).

Granted Hale doesn't say to use dee hooks, or for that matter any hook for any given fly. He mentions that there are hooks up to 4 inches long in his section on hooks, but that he only illustrated the standard hooks. I dare say, a 4 inch long hook would have to have an extra long dee shank, or it would be something like a #15/0 (possibly bigger), far too impractical for salmon fishing. Hale appears to assume that the reader of his book already knows that there are hooks available of various shank lengths since he only mentions in passing that hooks are available up to 4 inches long. He also mentions using a #2/0 hook of "the ordinary type" as a good choice for someone just starting to tie salmon flies. He wouldn't mention using a hook of the "ordinary type" if there weren't long shank (or dee hooks) available. His instructions are so precise that this must have been deliberate to keep a new salmon fly tyer from using a long shank hook when learning to tie them.

[halcyon]

So we can agree that Knox does not specify a long shank hook at all and that the more common usage of "large hook" meaning a similar hook in a larger size is another interpretation of Knox's text. And we can also agree that he does not state that the bodies are made by tearing apart wool yarn and mixing it as a loose dubbing, again that is one interpretation. The others that come readily to mind are, winding the fine wool yarns together to give the illusion of a blended color, and he simply didn't care how you got the color as long as it was the color he described.

We can also agree that Hale talks of dubbing onto a thread because the only wool he discusses is loose wool. Again the use of wool yarn pulled apart is one interpretation of the teaching of Hale. And again there is no mention of using "long shank" or "Dee" hooks. This is an interpretation of his text. Clearly, a 4" hook does not necessarily mean a long shank hook but simply a hook with a shank 4" long no matter the style of the hook. The use of "ordinary type" can mean the common type of standard wire weight salmon irons as opposed to low water or light wire hooks. The fact that Hale is precise means he is very accurate and literal. The idea that he is suggesting that other means and materials can not be used would be yet another interperation of his text.

While none of the conclusions you suggest are a "stretch" they are your interpretations and not the teachings of either Knox or Hale as published. Thanks for clearing this up for me.

Regards,

[Salar-1]

All I know is a Bartleet #2/0 ,with the hump t and a bit of the curve of the hook gape straightened out ,makes a superb WMB for early big MSW fish!
Cheers

[flytyer]

halcyon,

As you know, Hale says very little about hooks in his book other than telling the reader to use good quality hooks and never mentions hook size or hook shank length except for the one reference to 4" long hooks. I don't think anyone would argue that Hale would use a #8 hook to tie a full dressed Jock Scott with all of its many components. Nor do I think that anyone would say it is only one view to say a full dressed Jock Scott is dressed on hooks of #4 and larger. Likewise, I don't think Hale would use a #4/0 hook to tie Kelson's Red Pirate (which he included in the first editions 40 fly patterns that Kelson specifies in his book is to be tied on small hooks of 1/2" -3/4" long-about modern #8-#12 salmon hooks).

It is obvious Hale knew of Kelson (possibly even fished the same water with him) and that Kelson used and specified hook sizes for some flies and mentioned tying spey and dee flies on long shank dee hooks. Heck, Kelson was the editor of the Fishing Gazette and had been putting fly patterns in it before Hale wrote his book. I find it very interesting that Hale said nothing other than his reference to 4" long hooks and a beginner should start with a #2/0 of the ordinary type when Francis who predated him and Kelson his contemporary both mentioned using long shank dee hooks and small hooks because his tying instructions are very clear and precise. However, on the subject of hooks and what sizes to use, he was extremely vague to the point of not being useful at all.

We know that long shank and extra long shank dee and low water hooks were available and in general use for spey flies when Hale wrote his book because Francis spoke of them in his book, which predated Hale by quite a few years. We also know from the plates in Blacker's book that long shank hooks were in use prior to when Knox wrote his book. And we also know from antique spey flies that have survived from the early to mid 1800's that they were almost universally tied on long shank dee hooks, just not the monster 2.5" to 4" ones.

By the way, thanks for the lively discussion on hooks and materials because it helps new spey and other salmon and steelhead tyers see how things evolved and developed and lets others see that not even the old masters agreed or even felt it important to mention some aspects of a fly.

[halcyon]

FLYTYER,

Kelson was a corresspondent of the Fishing Gazette when Marston was editor but Kelson was never an editor of the Fishing Gazette as far as I can find.

Regards,

[sean]

I like to tie my lady carolines with the lint between my toes after wearing olive wool socks. It is spun on 8/0 uni thread and sometimes a little red is in the mix if it is around christmas and I am wearing my red and green striped wool socks. The longer the shank the better as there is usually a plethora of lint. I think I read about this method in an obscure book dated around 1839. :razz: :razz: :razz:

-sean

[flytyer]

halcyon,

Me bad, I knew Kelson was a contributor and Marston was the editor and let my thoughts get ahead of my typing managing to leave Marston out and giveing Kelson credit for something he did not do in his prolific salmon fishing and tying life.

Blacker mentions different hook type in his text. He calls for a #2 or 3 large salmon size for fly #12 on p. 117. Then on p. 118-119 he specifies a #1 hook, full salmon size for the pattern at the top of the page; then specifies a #1 or #2 hook, spring salmon size for the next one; a #1 or #2 hook for the next; followed by a #2 hook, spring salmon size for the next. And on p.110 he says the large dun palmer (fly #7) is obtained by tying two hooks back to back, the top one to be tied aobut 1/4 the way down the shank of the end one. When you look at the plate of fly #7, it is very clear that the rear (or end) hook has a much longer shank that the front hook, and this difference in shank lengths is even more pronounce when you take into account his direction for tying the top on 1/4 way back on the rear hook's shank.

To add further to this discussion on hooks that may have been used by Blacker and others, there is a wonderful modern photograph of an authenticated Blacker tied original Spirit Fly you can find on John Mc's site. There are several very interesting things about this fly, not the least of which is the high degree of skill it was tied with. However, the important thing for this discussion is that the hook it is tied on is a long shank dee style, which produces a very large fly; but with a reasonable hook gape.

[flytyer]

Sean,

Not to mention the extra help a fly tied with such material would get from the, let us say, scent it would have after spending a day ensconced in a water proof boot.

[Feiger]

Personally, am becoming fond of belly button lint, after a 1/2 dozen days of wearing wool and fleece sweaters, and some poly and wool underwear... the colors are amazing, and the best part about it, the material comes "pre-waxed"....... :hihi:

[Igor]

"By the way, thanks for the lively discussion on hooks and materials because it helps new spey and other salmon and steelhead tyers see how things evolved and developed and lets others see that not even the old masters agreed or even felt it important to mention some aspects of a fly."

'Lively discussions' of this nature can also discourage and confuse new tyers, IMHO.

Rather than subject the aspiring Spey and Classic tyer to personal interpretations of the 'Masters' writings, why not recommend they read the books themselves and draw their own conclusions about a specific technique or pattern?

Better yet, why not conduct an actual tying demonstration, or publish your work? Isn't that a better and less-confusing means of validating something that is (until that time) little more than conjecture?

Again, just my opinion.

Hywel

[sinktip]

why not conduct an actual tying demonstration, or publish your work?

Sean, I think this is a great idea! Please plan on bringing your vise out with you so you can demonstrate your lint spinning method. And when the book comes out, can I have a signed copy?


'Lively discussions' of this nature can also discourage and confuse new tyers, IMHO.

I personally disagree with this as I question how many new tyers are going to be too hung up one way or the other on body building technique for a Lady Caroline. For advanced tyers though, I would think this "debate" informative and entertaining if nothing else.

I personally don't know who is right on the proper application of Berlin wool and to be honest, don't care. I admire the passion though that Halcyon and FlyTyer have for the subject and have found the geneology discussion quite informative.

For my applications, the technicalities are probably a moot point. First, I can't dress a fly like FT; one of the finest tyers I have ever personally seen. And two, I've forsaken Berlin wool entirely and instead am standing anxiously by my mailbox awaiting the delivery of a bag of Feiger's BB dubbing. He has assured me that this batch was "harvested" before he lost weight so likely contains hamburger drippings and actual shrimp oil! :smokin:

[Igor]

Sinktip,

I will agree with you on the point that the 'debate' was entertaining. *g*

Sean,

Can pepperoni grease infused belly button lint be spun on a wire core dubbing brush? The famed Italian Master, Guido Squingilli, made a vague mention of it in his obscure treatise, "Il Mosca Mio" (circa 1845 1/2). Credit for a similar technique is mistakenly given to the up-start German tyer (and Squingilli's arch rival) Gustav Fische - although every tyer knows Fische used Bratwurst fat soaked silk. I certainly hope you'll make reference to Maestro Squingilli's brilliance in your up-coming book - and, I'll take an autographed copy, too.

Hywel

[Salar-1]

Igor
DON'T try feiger's BB lint !! Flytyer had the stuff analized (sic) HMMMMM !! let me think here !! How does one ANALISE bb lint ?? I don't want to know ,however Fytyer had it done anyway, and according to the lab report the discusted lab technician ,apparently, referred to Feiger's sheep herding and elegant crossdressing activities. The lab reort only hopes that one ingrediant WAS lanoline !!
Cheers

[speydoc]

Guys
Are we fly fishing or bait fishing? All this talk of lint with various hydrocarbon additives is very close to crossing the line!!!?!
I know the water temperatures are going down.... . .
speydoc

[Feiger]

Brian - just 'cause you're affraid to be brought out of the flytying closet, doesn't mean you need to imply your own material collecting practices on everyone else... :whoa: if i recall correctly, sheep are considerably more abundant in your neck of the woods than mine..... :razz: :razz:

[SSPey]

I like to dub mine with goat. When goat starts turning up in your belly button lint, well, let's not go there... :eek:

[Salar-1]

Feiger
You can always use my excuse "Honestly officer ,I was just helping this sheep across the fence !"
Do you know how a sheepherder from The Deschutes,John Day,Grande Rhode , Salmon Rivers area counts his sheep ?
"1, 2, 3, 4, Hi sweety,6 7,8,"
Yeah ,Ya right the sheep ARE considerablely more abuntant here but they AIN'T as scared :smokin:

[Feiger]

have they grown that accustom to the abuse??? sounds like an endless supply of materials to me...... :tsk_tsk:

[Feiger]

:hihi: what did the Gaspe sheep say to the other Gaspe sheep as they watched the angler work throught a drift?
"Th-haa-att-t'ss my DD-Daa-aaa-add-ddd-dd!!" :saevilw:

[halcyon]

Gardener,

In reading P.D. Malloch's articles in the 1890 Fishing Gazette entitled Salmon Flies and How to Make Them he specifically call for Berlin wool to be wound around the tying thread and then wound around the hook. He specifically calls for loose wools like Pigs Wool to be dubbed onto the thread. These articles were published after Knox but before Hale. So in this reference that specifically details how to use Berlin wool it is wound as a yarn around the thread and not turned into dubbing first.

Regards,