Figuring out Grain Windows - Page 3 - Spey Pages
 2Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
post #31 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 10:44 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Clearwater, Ronde, OP
Posts: 580
sushi,

forgive me, i forgot to ask about the effects of different density poly leaders?
Attack is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 11:16 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Vancouver WA
Posts: 973
THE ONLY good way to determine what line you like best on a particular rod is to cast lines on the rod.. end of story

not all churches have pews??? Rare is the pewless church that actually has God.
roballen is offline  
post #33 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-03-2014, 02:10 AM
sushiyummy & C&R
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sandy, Deschutes are nearby
Posts: 954
Zack, my experience has been with sinking tips, which can be a good proxy for sinking polyleaders.

Again, the RHW is measuring the Rear Half of the Line system, one calculation for sinking systems, another for floating systems.

As my blog would point out, the heavier the FHW (forward half weight), the less clean and crisp the unloading phase feels. It gets clunkier as FHW gets heavier. This is why AFS Gen 2 Dual sink heads felt clunkier than the AFS Gen 1 Sinking Sink heads, using the same RHW. That is because the Gen 2 had a near level centric balance of 55% to 45% ratio, comparing to the superior rear balance of Gen 1 that had a RHW to FHW ratio of 60% to 40%.

When you look deeper into these numbers, you realize Gen1 RHW is 50% heavier than its FHW, versus Gen 2's 22% for the same attributes.

Of course, the AFS floater with leader had the crispiest release with a 80 to 20% ratio.

Although this works for me at this time, it is all subject to refinement.

Conservation is nothing more than the fight to save ourselves from ourselves, work that can only be done by ourselves.

www.awholenuthalevel.com Spey casting website.
sushiyummy is offline  
 
post #34 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-03-2014, 02:16 AM
sushiyummy & C&R
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sandy, Deschutes are nearby
Posts: 954
One more thing to add.

Rod load can feel heavier with sinking tips/ heads than with floating line systems for the same RHW. The sunk anchor and less lift both in air and water can often leave behind some load on the tip when changing planes from back to fwd cast.

This could mean that the beginning of the fwd stroke may start with some rod load. Thus rather than starting close to a relaxed tip, one is starting with some resistance caused by the sinking line experiencing this lessor lift than floater, creating the impression it is a heavier line system.

Conservation is nothing more than the fight to save ourselves from ourselves, work that can only be done by ourselves.

www.awholenuthalevel.com Spey casting website.
sushiyummy is offline  
post #35 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-03-2014, 02:23 AM
All Tangled Up
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: NorCal
Posts: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by roballen View Post
THE ONLY good way to determine what line you like best on a particular rod is to cast lines on the rod.. end of story
While undoubtably true, this also presents something of a chicken-egg problem, particularly for those without free access to infinite varieties of lines. Guesstimates can be useful if only as a starting point. Well reasoned guesstimates might even provide some insight.
troutless is offline  
post #36 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-03-2014, 09:33 AM
Registered User
 
NB Rob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 1,033
or you could just cast a spey line. Let some out if it's too light, bring some in if it's too heavy, shoot the rest.

What happens when the wind picks up? bust out the graph paper?
NB Rob is offline  
post #37 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-03-2014, 09:47 AM
Registered User
 
NB Rob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 1,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by troutless View Post
While undoubtably true, this also presents something of a chicken-egg problem, particularly for those without free access to infinite varieties of lines. Guesstimates can be useful if only as a starting point. Well reasoned guesstimates might even provide some insight.
letting go of the magic bullet ideal is even a better bet. Good casters can cast almost anything. And when it doesn't go out perfectly, they don't make a face at the reel and blame the line, they adjust their stroke.

Spey claves are a great place to try rod/line combos.
NB Rob is offline  
post #38 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-03-2014, 09:47 AM
Carp aficionado
 
Black Zonky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Great Lakes & Farm Ponds
Posts: 1,186
No Rob, someone should hand me a 25ft line and it should fit perfect with my existing casting stroke and rod. No adjustments by me necessary. Shooting heads have turned fly fisherman into Veruca Salt.
Black Zonky is offline  
post #39 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-03-2014, 03:24 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 337
Lines

My buddies and myself all believe that casting a line on a new rod is the best way to dial it in. To that end between us, we have amassed quite a collection of long belly, mid-belly, Skagit and Scandi lines between us. New rods result in mini-claves where everyone gets together and using tables as a starting point, rods are cast with various line combos. Its fun, we get to try a lot of rods and lines, and the coffee tastes better after a bit of exercise.

"There will always be days when the fishing is better than ones most optimistic forecast, others when it is far worse. *Either is a gain over just staying home."

Roderick Haig-Brown
Cutthroat1954 is offline  
post #40 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-03-2014, 03:37 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rogue River
Posts: 11,062
The 'answer' is have Steve Gotshall build you a head system.

Shooting line is separate and looped as are the heads. You want to change the presentation/sink tip/poly leader/etc., all you do is change to the appropriate 'head.' Mark up some zip lock bags with what the head is (and for?) for storage.

No 'credit' to me for the zip lock bag bit that came from J D Jones here on the board.

Fred Evans - White City, Oregon
fredaevans is offline  
post #41 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-03-2014, 04:46 PM
All Tangled Up
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: NorCal
Posts: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by NB Rob View Post
letting go of the magic bullet ideal is even a better bet. Good casters can cast almost anything. And when it doesn't go out perfectly, they don't make a face at the reel and blame the line, they adjust their stroke.

Spey claves are a great place to try rod/line combos.
I'm not a fan of 'magic bullet' thinking either, thus the use of the word 'guesstimate' in the above. Example of what I mean by that: When I travel I usually carry 2-3 rods, partly to be able to rig different systems, partly as insurance. So over the years I've accumulated quite a few different lines in different systems, short heads, mid-and long-belly, various lines cut for tips, some intermediate or multi-density lines, etc. When I set up a system, whether because I have a new rod or it's been so long since I used the rod I've forgotten what I last cast on it, what I don't do is pull out all the lines I have and cast them all to 'see what I like best'. I start with a reference line system I am familiar with -- for a mid-length rod, that might be something like a NextCast 55 -- pull out two weights I think are likely to work based on the rod weighting, go and try them out. Usually I have a slight preference for one or the other, I go with that one. Based on the specs of that line and the rod length I have a pretty good idea what weight scandi/skagit/short-belly/mid-belly etc., given the 30-40gr windows most line makers adopt, is going to be a reasonable match. That is a purely experiential way of getting a 'guesstimate', it usually gives results good enough I can quickly match up whatever combos I need for a given trip without fiddling around very much. And I'm certainly not obsessing over 20gr one way or another or other fine details. sushiyummy apparently has a more numerical system that works for him. Certainly when moving outside well-trodden combos, e.g. single-hand rated lines on double-handed rods or vice-versa, some sort of numerical thinking is useful to get into the ballpark of what is most likely to work. Beyond that I agree it is about adaptation.

At the same time, please don't tell me that a good caster, who finds a given line+rod combo well-balanced, in the midpoint of the rod's window, at a given spec, will be equally satisfied with the same model line carrying 20%+ more grains. Changes this large or larger are enough to affect the rod performance in a way that is more than subjective. I don't believe in magic bullets, but I do believe line design affects achievable performance. I don't believe in weight tweaks that are in the range of manufacturing tolerance, but I don't believe 'a good caster can cast anything' either. Almost all designed systems have both ranges of optimal performance and points of diminishing returns to optimization.
troutless is offline  
post #42 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 01:45 AM
Matt Arciaga
 
failtospey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Roaming
Posts: 828
Just my one cent, Ive had nothing but luck following Reddington`s recommendations on the grain window. The newer series lists grain wts for all the new spey and switch rods, but if your not a fan of production rods.... Ive also gone through this and what I do is buy a cheap 30 ft 600 - 700 gr head, and start cutting till you get the load you feel is best for you, and well you'd only be out the $$ for the head, then you could order the new head that was close to what grain your found, oh yeah get a digital gram scale and multiply the grams by 15.4 to get you grain number. I went one step further and took the entire head and made 1 foot sections weld loop to loop and then you have the grain wt window finder forever... good luck bud
failtospey is offline  
post #43 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 01:47 PM
sushiyummy & C&R
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sandy, Deschutes are nearby
Posts: 954
BTW, I also found out that RHW (yes....Right Hand Wind) calculations can be used when going from Short Belly heads to Long Belly heads. However, it has to go through one more factor to consider the angle changes between the apex of the Dee loop and the rod tip when changing head lengths.

No big deal, simple grade school trig modification.

It hasn't been posted on my blog yet, simply in development stage.

Conservation is nothing more than the fight to save ourselves from ourselves, work that can only be done by ourselves.

www.awholenuthalevel.com Spey casting website.
sushiyummy is offline  
post #44 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 07:18 PM
Registered User
 
ERIK HELM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Great Lakes and PNW
Posts: 468
I dunno... Perhaps I have been in the two-hand or 'spey' casting thing too long or perhaps long enough to know that a line closely approximate to correct should be able to be cast fine by any given rod. This pseudo-science and new thirst for the magic bean through calculations, measurements, Euclidian geometry, etc. Has me puzzled at best. More and more I believe that this little corner of the sport is being over-complicated by people giving advice based on little experience, dogma relating to strong personal preferences, and for a disregard for the joy of just going out there and casting. We used to get by with windcutters just fine, then better lines came along. Good. Then came the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads which at first was fine, but has now evolved. or devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused. Long ago I simplified my approach and fishing gear, and it paid off. I spend less or no time fussing and futzing, and just cast and swing. Perhaps there is a lesson here in simplification, time put in on the great rivers, learning by having your a$$ handed to you, and a bit less attention paid to marketing hype and the new 'magic bean' rod, line, vortex technique, etc.

Then, somewhere in the mix of learning and time, things simplify themselves, and we may pay less attention to the noise, and more time just enjoying the cast and swing, regardless of the line, rod, matching hip pack, running line para-physics, etc.
SkagitMiester likes this.

http://classicangler.blogspot.com/
FRSCA Certified TH Casting Instructor
ERIK HELM is offline  
post #45 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 09:31 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Vancouver WA
Posts: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERIK HELM View Post
I dunno... Perhaps I have been in the two-hand or 'spey' casting thing too long or perhaps long enough to know that a line closely approximate to correct should be able to be cast fine by any given rod. This pseudo-science and new thirst for the magic bean through calculations, measurements, Euclidian geometry, etc. Has me puzzled at best. More and more I believe that this little corner of the sport is being over-complicated by people giving advice based on little experience, dogma relating to strong personal preferences, and for a disregard for the joy of just going out there and casting. We used to get by with windcutters just fine, then better lines came along. Good. Then came the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads which at first was fine, but has now evolved. or devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused. Long ago I simplified my approach and fishing gear, and it paid off. I spend less or no time fussing and futzing, and just cast and swing. Perhaps there is a lesson here in simplification, time put in on the great rivers, learning by having your a$$ handed to you, and a bit less attention paid to marketing hype and the new 'magic bean' rod, line, vortex technique, etc.

Then, somewhere in the mix of learning and time, things simplify themselves, and we may pay less attention to the noise, and more time just enjoying the cast and swing, regardless of the line, rod, matching hip pack, running line para-physics, etc.



Absolutely 100% correct.

not all churches have pews??? Rare is the pewless church that actually has God.
roballen is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Spey Pages forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Grain Windows Trev Sliw Tackle 3 04-22-2014 04:00 PM
grain windows DWFII General 9 10-29-2012 06:04 PM
Sage & Grain Windows? Okisutch Rods 4 05-20-2010 08:51 AM
Confused on grain windows vs line weight gwozdz Spey Basics 10 11-12-2008 01:50 PM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome