Figuring out Grain Windows - Page 2 - Spey Pages
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post #16 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-19-2014, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
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Am I close?

Based on the last couple of posts, I think the best way to figure this thing out is by trial and error, i.e., casting a lot of different lines and finding the ones that work best for me.

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post #17 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-20-2014, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by glcaddis View Post
Based on the last couple of posts, I think the best way to figure this thing out is by trial and error, i.e., casting a lot of different lines and finding the ones that work best for me.
We have a winner.

Lest this sound facile or tongue in cheek, my own experiences with the ECHO / AirFlo ratings have been way (WAY) off the published charts - so much so that I often use 90-120gr less that the "optimal grain window" listed on the rod(s).

I have had a few conversations with folks on the design side of these rods, and the cliff-note version of these is...these are the weights that the majority of casters and anglers will find useful as starting points - if they don't work for you, do your own thing and be happy.

A good starting point is to analyze your personal style...are you a "mass" caster or a "velocity" caster? Both have their own pros, cons, and idiosyncrasies, but mass and speed are the two principle parts of the equation. In my experience, I am a "velocity" caster and use the lighter mass at higher speed under control to achieve the same result as a "mass" caster...

Your results may vary.


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post #18 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-20-2014, 10:53 AM
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- if they don't work for you, do your own thing and be happy.
Your results may vary.
This. And most good 2 handed shops have an inventory of heads for folks to demo before you buy. Invest a little time in a good shop and you'll come away with the right match for you.
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post #19 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-20-2014, 11:08 AM Thread Starter
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Agreed, but...

All the rods I currently have I've bought used through this site's Classifieds. I like the rods and they have all been in great shape. But, I don't live close enough to any shops that carry lots of lines to be able to go that route. I feel like I'd be imposing on Poppy to send lines all the way to Illinois from Idaho. But, I'm coming the conclusion that I may need to buy my lines here also, try them and then re-sell the ones that don't work.

Gene
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post #20 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-20-2014, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glcaddis View Post
All the rods I currently have I've bought used through this site's Classifieds. I like the rods and they have all been in great shape. But, I don't live close enough to any shops that carry lots of lines to be able to go that route. I feel like I'd be imposing on Poppy to send lines all the way to Illinois from Idaho. But, I'm coming the conclusion that I may need to buy my lines here also, try them and then re-sell the ones that don't work.
I have amassed quite an inventory of lines & heads over the years. Many of which came through members of this forum, others from close out sales. You may find something on the "Good Old Fashion Line Swap" thread.

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post #21 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-20-2014, 03:56 PM
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Related question

If I like a short belly line like a Vector at 570 grains, what would a ball park be for a mid-belly like NC FF 70? On all my rods I've lined them with Skagits and short bellies (Vector, Delta) in the same grain range, scandis about 60-80 grains lighter, but have been at a loss for choosing longer lines.

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post #22 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-20-2014, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glcaddis View Post
All the rods I currently have I've bought used through this site's Classifieds. I like the rods and they have all been in great shape. But, I don't live close enough to any shops that carry lots of lines to be able to go that route. I feel like I'd be imposing on Poppy to send lines all the way to Illinois from Idaho. But, I'm coming the conclusion that I may need to buy my lines here also, try them and then re-sell the ones that don't work.
I hear you there. I was very lucky to have a shop near-by that loaned me three different weights (within the grains window) when looking to purchase my first skagit and scandi heads. I ended up low in the window and selling the scandi-heads for the WA and FF.

At first - it was simply matching a speyline to the rod by weight-class and then I was completely lost when confronted with weights in 30 grain increments.
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post #23 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-22-2014, 12:33 AM
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Big Tuna,

There isn't a good rule-of-thumb for grain weight of a mid-to long-belly line when it cast well with a short-belly line. The main reason for this is some rods are designed with more flexible tips and stiff butts to best cast Scandi or short-belly lines, and others are designed with a stiffer tip that better support the additional weight of the mid-to long-belly lines.

That said, a good starting point for a line like the NC FF70 with a rod that cast a short-belly of 570 grs. well would be a 650 gr FF70. This because you will be casting 10' more belly and that should translate into about 70-100 grs.
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post #24 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 06:28 PM
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Big Tuna,

There isn't a good rule-of-thumb for grain weight of a mid-to long-belly line when it cast well with a short-belly line. The main reason for this is some rods are designed with more flexible tips and stiff butts to best cast Scandi or short-belly lines, and others are designed with a stiffer tip that better support the additional weight of the mid-to long-belly lines.

That said, a good starting point for a line like the NC FF70 with a rod that cast a short-belly of 570 grs. well would be a 650 gr FF70. This because you will be casting 10' more belly and that should translate into about 70-100 grs.
Thanks. That's helpful.

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"A passion for steelhead is a hard ride. It is all consuming. God help the woman, man, or child who hopes to compete for some small claim to the passion in the angler so stricken." Bill McMillan, Forward- A Passion for Steelhead
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post #25 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-27-2014, 12:52 PM
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Hi guys
Our fly club here in the West Kootenays, B.C. bought a the rio Scandi head line kit then added to it till we had lines from 280 grain to about 660 /700 grains. That kit has been a life saver. Check your fly clubs , they may also have a kit. If they don't ,bring it up at a meeting and get the club to invest in kit of spey line heads. Our club and our fly shop Castlegar Sports also bought a bunch of reels, spooled with backing, for use with the heads. If you don't belong to a fly club try to join one if you have one in your area, it could be the best thing you have done in a long time.
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post #26 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-27-2014, 12:57 PM
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Hi guys
Our fly club here in the west Kootenays,B.C. bought a the rio Scandi head line kit then added to it till we had lines from 280 grain to about 660 /700 grains. that kit has been a lifer saver. Check you fly clubs , they may also have a kit. If they don't ,bring it up at a meeting and get the club to invest in kit of spey line heads. Our club and our fly shop Castlegar Sports also bought a bunch of reels, spooled with backing, for use with the heads.
Bjay
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post #27 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 12:52 AM
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Gents, my experience with the Sinking AFS Gen 1 vs. Gen 2 led me to a working calculation that works for me (and perhaps for you too

Find the Rear Half Weight (RHW) of an existing head that loads the rod properly. Incidentally, this RHW calculates differently between sinking heads and Floating heads due to a leader effect.

I found that approximately the same RHW for any heads* feels like the same load casting, keeping in mind that the calculation must consider leader effect for floating heads.

For example on my Zpey HM Signature 13' 1" 8/9 rod, I casted a Guideline 3D I-2-4 sink in 8/9 weight in 44 feet.

The RHW for this 8/9 line was 353 grains. But I wanted a shorter head for tighter casting conditions.

I went to Guidelines calculator and found that the RHW of the 10/11 class was around 366 grains for 39 feet, close enough to the above 353 grains.

I am now casting Beulah's Aero Head in 7/8 (510 grains) on the same rod for Summer Run steelhead. Have yet to do the calculations to confirm this.

However, my blog on my website (footnote) contains in depth explanation and calculations based on Zpey 12'4" 7 weight rod, covering AFS floater, AFS Sink Gen 1, and the dubious AFS Sink Gen 2.

Hope this can help.

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Last edited by sushiyummy; 09-03-2014 at 06:44 PM. Reason: Qualify for Scandi Heads only. Mid belly heads are recent developments not added to this study.
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post #28 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 07:41 PM
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Rehash of 10 year old data

I got this from Peter_SC at least ten years ago. At the time, it was a hotly contested revelation.
Attached Files
File Type: doc castingweightmodel40.doc (23.0 KB, 56 views)

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post #29 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 10:32 PM
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Sushi,

Don't you think RHW will be confused with right hand wind?

How do your calculations change when leader length changes?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sushiyummy View Post
Gents, my experience with the Sinking AFS Gen 1 vs. Gen 2 led me to a working calculation that works for me (and perhaps for you too

Find the Rear Half Weight (RHW) of an existing head that loads the rod properly. Incidentally, this RHW calculates differently between sinking heads and Floating heads due to a leader effect.

I found that approximately the same RHW for any heads feels like the same load casting, keeping in mind that the calculation must consider leader effect for floating heads.

For example on my Zpey HM Signature 13' 1" 8/9 rod, I casted a Guideline 3D I-2-4 sink in 8/9 weight in 44 feet.

The RHW for this 8/9 line was 353 grains. But I wanted a shorter head for tighter casting conditions.

I went to Guidelines calculator and found that the RHW of the 10/11 class was around 366 grains for 39 feet, close enough to the above 353 grains.

I am now casting Beulah's Aero Head in 7/8 (510 grains) on the same rod for Summer Run steelhead. Have yet to do the calculations to confirm this.

However, my blog on my website (footnote) contains in depth explanation and calculations based on Zpey 12'4" 7 weight rod, covering AFS floater, AFS Sink Gen 1, and the dubious AFS Sink Gen 2.

Hope this can help.
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post #30 of 51 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 10:43 PM
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Oh Zack that just makes too much sense

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