Spey Pages banner

Hybrid shooting heads?

4K views 14 replies 8 participants last post by  moethedog 
#1 ·
I had a discussion last year in another thread about hybrid shooting heads, a combination of Scandi and skagit, i interesting discussion about the possibilities of this kind of line. is it possible or even useful? some time ago a Swedish company presented some kind of line that i similar to this idea. i have not tested it yet, i know it have been some discussions on swedish forums, but i am just curious about the N. American view on this.

so, some thoughts?
 
#2 ·
Something in 24'-30' would be nice. I find that switch orientated scandi lines are very good crossover lines for longer rods. Beulah Elixir switch, Snowbee switch, and Wulff Ambush are some fine examples.
 
#4 ·
I know the rio version of this, but my view is that this is a traditional Scandi with tips, and this is a ready to-go-line. what i know, hybrid lines comes in custom-version, cut it to your own weight-preferences. Rio lines are nice, but the front part of the rio belly is accordning to me too thin to really carry fast sinking tips, the taper looks like a "coke-bottle" (thin front part of the belly, then connected to a thicker tip) and i experince a "hinge-effect" during the cast. it is a very personal experience, i know. the hybrid line has a thicker front part then the rear of the tip, what i understand, and the hinge effect should be avoided (in theory....).
 
#6 · (Edited)
Yes you are correct - those rio scandi versatip lines (very nice) are %100 regular scandi with (fairly delicate) tips.

If you are not already familiar with them I suggest you try one of the Nextcast lines such as the Winter Authority (WA). These have a more or less traditional scandi front end, but with a longer level butt end that gives them a lot more launching capacity closer to a skagit, but far more elegant feeling. They can cast relatively big flies if needed (5" weighted intruders, for example) on sink tips up to around 8-10 ips and 13'. This is enough to be fine here even for most winter fishing, but with a floating tip they are still a beautiful "dry" line. They cast like a scandi but have the extra power of a skagit. Put that together with the fact that they come in sizes from a more traditional length (around 30+ feet w/tip) to a mid-belly length (4 lengths in all) I think puts them way PAST the idea of a mere "hybrid" into something all its own. There are of course differing opinions and tastes, but I prefer to use one the shorter (up to 45') of these lines approximately matched to the weight of a skagit head that I would use with that rod. As I have described it before, on the spectrum from scandi to skagit these are on the skandi end, but a step over in the skagit direction - seems to make a surprisingly big difference in the power while keeping the "elegance".
 
#5 ·
What I would really like to see is a full integrated line offered in two lenghts. One short and powerfull multi-tip skagit/scandi hybrid in 25-30' and other a bit longer 30-35'. Thick enough up front end to turn over polytips. That would be one full integrated line where you can change your tips and add poly to fish any water column. Sorta triple density system. Works very well for me.
 
#7 ·
You can forget the Floating Skagit Belly because it can be seen just a dead weight. You need to cast it and it restricts fly sink. Cast just sinking section of something which is at least two times rod length and sinks fast enough!

You also can forget the Sinking Tip when you don't need to sink fly and cast only floating section of something which is at least two times rod length. A Skagit belly can be cast like short floating shooting head. It does not behave smoothly because it does not have much front taper but together with long mono leader it is fine!

It is beneficial that a Spey line head rear half weights more than front half. Up to 2/3 weight on rear makes casting easier because it is the top half of the D-loop weight which lifts line front and fly from the water anchor but only 1/3 weight in front usually begins to restricts fly size. But when the head is short close to twice the rod length and there is no line in an anchor only leader and fly the head does not need taper.

Current Vision and Guideline Skagit bellys have nice tapers where the rear half has about 56% of the weight and they become smooth behaving and efficient Spey lines with almost any tip. Vision comes also as an Intermediate.

Esa
 
#8 · (Edited)
I have not heard about the Nextcast lines, i do not know if they are known i Europe yet. what i am referring to are lines like this: (youtubelink) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04A0MU9VnjM
if this is truely a hybrid, i do not know, but it is interesting if it works with both scandi tips and light skagit tips (if it is possible?) personally, skagit are good for deep presentation, but for me as scandi caster and often use floating and intermediate tips, the skagit setup is not the optimal setup for me. but sometimes I need to get deeper, specially during and after a summer flood, then it could be useful to put on a heavier tip one my standard scandi set up. Well, anyhow an interesting discussion.
 
#10 · (Edited)
I have not heard about the Nextcast lines, i do not know if they are known i Europe yet. what i am referring to are lines like this: (youtubelink) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vt80CuXRmY
if this is truely a hybrid, i do not know, but it is interesting if it works with both scandi tips and light skagit tips (if it is possible?) personally, skagit are good for deep presentation, but for me as scandi caster and often use floating and intermediate tips, the skagit setup is not the optimal setup for me. but sometimes I need to get deeper, specially during and after a summer flood, then it could be useful to put on a heavier tip one my standard scandi set up. Well, anyhow an interesting discussion.
The line you posted above does seems from what they say in the video to have a similar taper (speaking in very broad terms of course) to what I posted above regarding the Winter Authority lines, if you read what I wrote about them. And I don't think those are the only two.

There is in actually no such thing as a "scandi tip" or a "skagit tip" in terms of the physics, only a tip that matches a line well. Likewise there may be other solutions to getting deeper to try first before switching to a different head, especially as you have a preference clearly stated for scandi tapers.

Dispensing for simplicity with the much more secondary issue of whether a tip has a bit of a taper or not, if a tip of a certain length and total weight (i.e. with a certain weight per unit LENGTH) casts well on your scandi head, for example a floating tip, then a denser (weight per unit VOLUME) tip with the same weight per unit length will sink better but cast exactly the same. I mention this because you said that you cast a floating and intermediate tip on your scandi lines OK, if I understood you. Going heavier in total weight, starting with the line, is usually, more or less, just for bigger flies. There are many other choices but the tips for this type of matching that I know best are the "Rio Replacement Tips". These are made in wt classes and given total lengths (10' or 15', but you can cut them) where each of the various sink rates, floating, intermediate, 3,6,8 ips all have the SAME total weight (therefore the same weight per unit length). So one thing you can try is just to match a denser (not heavier) tip to the scandi head you already have. Use the length and total weight, and then use the table for these tips to find the denser tips that match, and presto, you will be able to cast a faster sinking tip on your current scandi head!

To take a hypothetical example to make things clear - suppose a tip you use that casts well already with the flies you like to use is a 130gr floating tip that is 15' long. Then you could replace it by an 8ips (equivalent in sink rate to t11) 9w 15' rio replacement tip that weighs 129gr, or for that matter with a 3 or 6 ips 9w tip which all weigh the same. These should cast exactly the same, and turn over exactly the same as the floating tip that worked. No hinge effect, etc. Problem solved. There are other ways to make things work, but I have found this one particularly foolproof.

The overall moral without getting into many secondary details: its is the weight per unit length (linear density) of a line that determines how big a fly you can cast (as then which tips match the best), and the tips that match scandi heads will have less of that than skagit heads, and so be more limited. Also on a traditional nearly-level skagit head the tip matching will not matter as much. If you want to cast BIGGER flies, then you may eventually have to take a step toward the skagit taper heads with (at least) heavier butt sections, but up to a certain point skill can also compensate. If you just would like to get your current flies deeper then your problem can be solved to a large degree simply by matching the tips correctly as described above. Only if you can't cast the flies you want (or can't find a decently-matched sink tip) would you then be forced to change lines, though you might do so for many other reasons. But (to finally get back to the original post) in that case I think you are right, if you really like scandi heads the first step would be to take a baby step towards a line with a heavier butt instead of immediately jumping to a full-on skagit. Also as another valid option there are beautiful full intermediate scandi lines you could go to that will cast the same but get much deeper using the same tips. The line maker Steve Godshall was actually telling me recently that this is what the Europeans use a lot more often in such situations, but we in North America have not caught up yet.

Hope these ideas help somewhat. I know that trial and error are the traditional "non geek" way to figure this stuff out, but it can get expensive, especially if you are going to buy new heads.
 
#9 ·
I thought anglers used to fish Norwegian rivers are experts to deliver and sink fly using simple yet very efficient Guideline shooting heads? :smile2:

My favorites are an Intermediate body PT DDC Connects and I like 3Ds a lot too but they are so expensive that I have not bought them unless I really "have to" use one.

Esa
 
#11 ·
Casting a sink tip of the same weight as floater is not the same in my practical use. From floater you use a long leader and sink tips call for very short leader as short as 3' in most cases. 15' vs. 3' leader wont cast the same as sinker will soak much more than the floater when anchoring. Unless I am the only one here fishing short leaders from sink tips then excuse me :)

For that very reason I love using polytips from my multi tip lines. Everything stays constant regardless how shallow or deep I want to fish...

Line - tip - polyleader - fly. Up top, yep. Deep? Bring it on!
 
#12 ·
Yes, I was going to get into the qualifications but my post was already way, way too long - must be the espresso an hour ago.:Eyecrazy: Its one of those "this is the truth, but not the whole truth" things. Of course if you change from an intermediate to a 10ips tip the casting is going to be a bit different even when they are matched well, but that is one of the "secondary" issues I referred too, like tapered tips. Of course when you have the primary stuff tuned in then the secondary issues suddenly become primary. I can't argue your point at all about a "dry" line either, except to say the the principles of how to get a good match on the tips, not to mention an tapered added leader, remain unchanged. Personally as a geek I'd love to have written on each end of every line, sink tip and tapered leader the linear density! Nerdgasm!

I know I spent way too much space, but this is stuff I wish I had someone explain clearly to me a while back. If not the OP I hope it will help someone.
 
#14 ·
I am quite new to spey casting, practising with both Scandi and Skagit heads, but found one very interesting combo for light switch trout rod. Using OPST Commando with T8 MOW tips or fast sinking Versitip for streamer work and 15' tapered Salmon Intermediate and floating Polyleaders plus short tapered mono or FC leaders, for very light small streamers, caddis pupas and nymps. This combination casts quite nice with touch and go casts.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top