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Small flies for salmon/steelhead

9K views 30 replies 20 participants last post by  swingndeep 
#1 ·
Decades ago, after my first reading of Arthur Wood's greased line technique, I copied him and tied sets of flies down to #10, 12. The usual conditions that would warrant use of something that small (low, clear, slow) have been met every time by having small (<8") fish take it -- repeatedly. Mr. Wood never mentioned such a thing in his letters. Beyond the discomfort of having to use a small tippit (in the event of hooking a steelhead), the fly never gets a chance to fish. I'm not referring to those few weeks when smolts are passing through. Then, any fly will hook them (seeing a 5/0 Ackroyd in a 6" smolt is enough to reel up and go elsewhere).
So my question to those that successfully use small flies -- How do you avoid the results I've described. Hoping to learn something here.
(I'd ask A.H.E. but he sits smugly indisposed :cool: )
 
#3 ·
I started using small flies in earnest this past fall. My friend Steve Turner inspired the development of the small all black version of my waker the Ninja. I tied these on on #8 and #10 hooks. Most often I tie these on the short stout Mustad s80 (modern equivalent of the 3906), size 8, which is equivalent in overall length as #10s in other style hooks. I was very surprised at the immediate appeal these tiny wakers had on my local steelhead. Just as surprising is that I don't hook into very many trout on the tiny fly as, like you I feared could happen. Not sure why this is the case, but having small fish pestering my miniscule fly has not really been an issue for me.
Todd
 
#4 ·
AHE Wood

Unlike here in the US where the season on some rivers is open all year long, the fishing season Scotland is more restricted. Wood only fished during those months, and only his home water. Grant town on Spey is fairly high in the system. I suspect Wood also hooked his share of smolts. He just didn't write about it.

The secret to fishing is to fish where the (big) fish are. :D
 
#8 ·
Unlike here in the US where the season on some rivers is open all year long, the fishing season Scotland is more restricted. Wood only fished during those months, and only his home water. Grant town on Spey is fairly high in the system. I suspect Wood also hooked his share of smolts. He just didn't write about it.

The secret to fishing is to fish where the (big) fish are. :D
Hello.. Mr. Wood fished the Cairnton Water, on the Aberdeenshire Dee. I haven´t seen the beat, but I´ve spent 3 days on Little Blackhall and Inchmarlo, a couple of beats downstream. A friend of mine told me that Cairnton is pretty fast water, and shallow. Mr. Wood cast and mended his cast repeatedly to slow the fly down, letting the salmon see and react to the fly. The idea of fishing the fly near to the surface came to Mr. Wood on Ireland, in 1903. I´m sure our friends from Scotland will fill in the rest.. Yours borano20
 
#5 ·
the fishing season Scotland is more restricted. Wood only fished during those months, and only his home water.

Suspect you're right, JD. What I recall is that he fished Feb-May and hung it up to return to his other passion, gardening. His meticulous, detailed record keeping or his letters seem like they should indicate if he was hooking juveniles. Because he often sight or spot fished fished, he may not have been as likely to run afoul of them (although I would imagine Apr/May to be smelting months... maybe a Scot can chime in on that).

Thanks, Todd. #8s are as small as I've used in the fall... and not first (rather as a come back fly). I've tried the smaller ones once low, warmer water befall us (and commonly fish blind). If intercepting small fish only happened on one stream, I wouldn't think twice about it, but it happens on a handful.

Maybe wangs look like they are too low calorie affairs (foam?) for the little guys. :)
 
#7 ·
One solution is to fish where there are no small fish, I know, that sounds like a joke . . . but, a few years ago 4 of us fished a small Atlantic salmon river on the Kola . . . and using the exact same fly (size 14 Irish shrimp, below) landed 6 salmon. On my first swing through the pool, I had a tap, tap, tap and replied that I'd been played with by parr. I was told by the guide "no Bill, there aren't any parr here . . . that was a salmon". Next cast I landed a salmon.

Another year, fishing one of my favorite pools in NBrunswick we knew that the pool had several salmon. We saw them throughout the morning rolling. Nobody touched a fish. I had the pool in the afternoon and thought I'd change up and try a sink tip . . . and I started catching fish. After a while I wondered "what fly won't they take?" and ended up landing 9 fish by evening in the same pool. All fished deep. Flies from size 1/0 bunny leeches to a size 12 undertaker.

I normally fish larger flies (4s, 6s, 8s) but I always have 10s and 12s with me and there are many times, they're the thing that works.

A couple of friends are fishing Iceland this summer and have been told they must bring 10, 12 and size 14 flies . . . because "that's what works".

Size 14 Irish shrimp
 

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#9 ·
I have fished Iceland for Atlantic salmon for many years and usually use flies sized from #8 to #12. I have caught a few on larger flies but that is very rare. The rivers for the most part are medium size and the water is very clear. On occasion we will use flies down to #14 to #16, my fishing partner had real good success this past summer using these very small flies. It's amazing how well these very small flies will hold, he landed fish up to about 16lbs where I was losing fish on size #10 flies. I often get parr right in the middle of a salmon pool or in water which is very fast and you would not think it could hold such a small fish. I think they often sit behind a rock or some break in the current. So it is often hard to avoid catching them, often when I feel the line start to jingle or tap from a small fish I will lift the rod and try and not hook the fish to start with if possible. However when I do hook them I will grab the fly by the eye and kind of invert it most of the time the parr just shake themselves off the hook. I also have a pair of forceps which I will use if that does not work, I usually just take my time and be gentle. I think there is no magic way to avoid catching parr or small fish when using small flies but in my many years of using small flies I'm usually able to shake off the fish as described.
 
#15 ·
I enjoy hitching small flies up to size 16 doubles. I haven't found a way to not hook par, but when I do find that there are lots around, I will choose larger irons tied low water and pinch the barb.
What helps me get em off the hook ,
Not setting the hook,
Giving lots of slack so they can hopefully wiggle their way free from the barbless hook.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Summer and Fall, on the Miramichi system, we often go down to 10's and 12's in low water. In my experience, if you don't do that, you don't hook fish in that skinny water. This little #10 Celtic Beauty hooked 7 salmon (by my lovely Celtic partner Bridget) before we retired it:



A fly I couldn't do with out in low autumn water is the Sneaky tied on a number 10 hook. It has accounted for a large number of BIG salmon:



For the most part, I've gotten away from tying/using low-water tied flies like this one, probably mostly because I love the durability and weight of hooks like the venerable (and impossible to find anymore) Tiemco 7999 #10:




Gary
 
#19 ·
I regularly fish tiny tiny wee flee's for Atlantics,I don't waste any fishing opportunities for Salmon and low warm water is ideal for tiny flees especially when coupled with low flows.Now,when the Smolt migration is in full swing(April ish), these little darlings will grab 'owt,especially if its small and all black, thats the way of things, but usually if you change pools, or move away from them you can solve that issue.Other fish such as Grayling,Brownies and Coarse fish will be inclined to have a chew, but such is life, strangely,change from an all black(Stoats Tail type of flee) to something with a bit more colour!,that does work for me!.
Now size wise, if circumstances dictate I will go as low as a size 16 dressed terrible or double,I regularly fish tubes of 1/4" with a 14 terrible up the back and do fish whats known as the "Full Stop",which is little more than a head and a few hairs on a very tiny tube coupled to a 16 terrible.In no way are the size of these flees indicative of the size of fish that will take them.I get plenty enough high end teenagers on them and at least 4 good 20lb + fish on them including my biggest at 24lb.Usually these days I fish Seaguar leader material coupled with a tapered mono leader or sometimes a poly.,but no lower than 11lb on the point and thats usually on my 6 weight switch with the tiny flees.
My best ever fish from the Tay was 24lb in a good flow on 8lb Maxima Chameleon on my B+W 15ft original Norway with a size 14 Munro Killer-not a low water outfit by any means, but it can be done.
Frequently and daft as it seems the low water presentation of a small flee on a big 'ook can be the culprit.A small flee on a small 'ook,now that looks much more natural and seems to be far more selective towards the intended target.
Just an observation or two.Yorkie.
 
#20 ·
Wood's beat at Cairnton on the Dee (well actually he leased it from the estate rather than owning it) was & is classic streamy fly water. The Dee is the clearest of all the big 4 Scottish salmon rivers & in low water is crystal clear, quite literally like looking through a glass of neat vodka. Consequently the fish can see very small flies quite easily, even at a considerable range, large flies therefore can appear too obvious & possibly threatening to an early summer fish which is just lying quietly conserving energy for spawning in 5 or 6 months time (different to Autumn when their territorial aggression switches in & they attack any smaller intruders into their territory).

But remember that Wood fished his classic low water dressings, the low water hooks were considerably larger in length & gape than the standard irons of the same numerical size, albeit made of a considerably finer gauge wire to prevent them sinking too deep in gentle flows. These were dressed very short in the classic low water pattern to produce a very small & short dressing - but with a lot of hook protruding at the rear.

I suspect that very small parr attacking the fly would miss the hook entirely if they atrack the dressed body of the fly. Larger fish such as brown trout were not that common on the Dee back then as they were regarded as vermin & thrown up the bank when caught (they were less enlightened times), even sea trout (sea run browns) were regarded as a nuisance by the Victorians & Edwardians (indeed up into the 1970's probably) for whom the salmon was the sole target. Add to this the fact that the runs of salmon back then were massive, far more than we could imagine today, & therefore the incidence of catching small fish V salmon would be much lower than today when salmon numbers are a fraction of what they were then & trout numbers have increased as they are no longer deliberately killed the first time they are caught.

So in today's conditions we are no longer comparing like with like against the conditions in Wood's period; I just wish we still had those numbers of salmon in our rivers!

Regards, Tyke.
 
#21 ·
I can't say that I've had the issue with small fish grabbing my fly. To me, a small fly is a #8, or the size of a #8. I tie often in the low water style, so a #4 reduced looks pretty close to a #8 standard ... at least between a #6 and #8 anyways. I've tied on Partridge RA1 and RA2 hooks (wee doubles), but ended up using them for trout instead. I find often that I swing a #10 or #12 Blue Charm for trout, or some other salmon pattern. Brookies will take anything :D

Any of the small fish I have caught while steelheading or salmon fishing, whether grilse, trout or sea trout, have all been on large flies. I just don't have the confidence in really small flies. Good thing too, the hooks are hard to hold in hand when tying.


Mike
 
#22 ·
Like most others i agree that a LW style aproach, is the easiest solution. But...
(Here comes the gasoline to the fire):saevilw:

To asume that mr Woods size 10 salmonfly equals a modern size 10, is in mine point of wiew a huge longshot.
The only correct answer to this, woluld be to speak to Wood himself. This is not possible as you pointed out. The next option will be verfied measures of Woods actual flies on a modern hook scale (wich i doubt is the case), and identification of the manufcaturer of the hook.

In the times of Woods endeavours, hook sizes were usualy given by the lengt of the hook (in inches). I belive there was at least 5 different hook scales used:
-Phillips
-Ephemera
-Frances
-Chitty
-Redditch (as modern sizes, i belive)

A size 10 Frances equals a size 3 Redditch (both 1 inch). I have no correct answer for you, but there are a handfull of people that can give a fairly conclusive fact based answer. This will be the Blacker project team, including mr Ronn Lucas sr.
They have done some very impressive reserch on this subject. BIG thanks for their groundbreaking work. If anyone want to go deeper into this subject i recomend starting at mr Ronn Lucas sr.

Sorry for the nitpicking, but I enjoy a beautiful Limerick. But still I tie and fish my flies on a modern hook (never smaller than sz 8 wet for salmon).:roll:
Hope I didnt stirr up the hornets nest...
Regards, Sig
 
#24 ·
Not at all, SigurdK. While the inducement to tie and then fish a few patterns from big to small can be attributed to my long ago study of Arthur Wood and his methods, my thread comes from numerous readings on Speypages by anglers reporting their successful use of very small flies for steelhead/salmon. While your explanation of hook sizing in Wood's day is interesting (and appreciated), I believe the reports I'm referring to are using equivalent hook sizing to mine... meaning their #10 is the same size as my #10. While I would like to be able to follow some earlier advice ('just fish where only big fish are'), I must admit to being a very slow learner, as after almost 50yrs of targeting big fish, I still can't avoid the small ones -- especially if I go small with my fly choice.
 
#26 ·
I fish 10's and 12's a lot for summer/fall steelhead, and I haven't had an issue with trout or smolt plucking at the fly.

I am always amazed when an adult steelhead picks out a wee fly in a huge river...this represents a big part of the joy I get fishing small bugs.

Tiny beadhead hairwing on a Daiichi 2421 sz12, attached to a fish, and a tiny, well-chewed skater on a Tiemco 3769 sz12
 

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#28 ·
The Deschutes is loaded with rainbow trout as well as a steelhead. When I nymphed the river a lot, yes, I occasionally caught trout. But, while swinging I have landed more suckers than trout. It still weirds me out to hook a sucker on the swing, but I have watched them gobbling caddis on the surface as well. I can only recall one nice trout I hooked 2 years ago while swinging a muddler - otherwise it's been steelhead or suckers - oh yes, and the occasional pikeminnow. So, unless you're swinging a size 18 pheasant tail or similar, I doubt you will hook many trout.
 
#29 ·
Thanks, steelhead23. Those Deschutes trout are feeding residents. Except when spawn time nears, their main reason to bite (I believe) is nutritional... much less so, even with arid steelhead rivers when considering adult steelhead.
I don't pretend to know why steelhead bite, but because my 'research' is frequently interrupted by juveniles when swinging small patterns, I might conclude that at least for them (like many youngsters), they lack discretion. Their impulse to grab something that might be food before another does is a likely dynamic. Large (older) trout don't because they don't recognize that swinging fly as food (and may remember a youthful mistake).
That some other anglers have not had the same experiences with small patterns only deepens my mystery.
 
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